5 ms·

Windows 11 barely a few weeks old and has some updates. Not sure why force reboot is a concern. The notification try gets a few notifications that are dumb, i'

Windows 11 barely a few weeks old and has some updates. Not sure why force reboot is a concern. The notification try gets a few notifications that are dumb, i'll admit, but my MacOS does the same -telling me to use their browser and forcing me at every bend to use an icloud account. Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah.. Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... i get a lock screen that says what information about the image and how to find out more. Ads in file manger? wut? Ads when you change default browser? wut? INstalled MS teams? yeah, bummer.. but welcome to modern OS's that all include a default messaging app/service (consume os's that is) Telemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this. In Next DNS, Google and Apple have as much, if not more telemetry per device.

castis 5y ago
> rage fest Not hardly. All of your 'wuts' are easily verifiable via a cursory search. There are ads for various MS services all over Windows. https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/ https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windo... https://www.ghacks.net/2017/03/08/windows-10-turn-off-ads-in-file-explorer/ https://www.ghacks.net/2017/03/08/windows-10-turn-off-ads-in... The problem is that less tech savvy people wont know how to turn this off. They dont need to be advertised inside a product they _bought_. Should be opt-in, not out. MS Teams installation:? Neither linux nor macos install Slack/Discord/etc for you out of the gate. Telemetry:? Same as Ads; should be opt-in, not out.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > MS Teams installation:? Neither linux nor macos install Slack/Discord/etc for you out of the gate. In all fairness, iMessage probably counts. Not that I consider "but Apple also does bad things!" to be a defense.
  - michaelpb 5y ago
    For Linux, many GNOME-based distros shipped with Pidgin (an open source communication program) well-integrated with the desktop environment, really early on compared to other OS's. I'm hesitant to say "Linux did it first", but it was definitely an early adopter. That said, it's hard to compare the two given Pidgin is a general purpose communication tool without vendor lock-in (e.g. it's also an IRC client, has peer-to-peer mode, etc), and most Linux installers let you opt-out of these sorts of bundled software. I think the real issue is some might find MS Teams to be obnoxious software (I suppose, I barely have used it)
- michaelpb 5y ago
  Yeah, I was really confused by this, since I very clearly recall seeing ads on fresh Windows computers, along with guides etc on how to disable them. I know back when I used Windows I had an entire routine to disable all the annoying stuff, so I suspect they disabled all the annoying stuff and totally forgot. I really don't get the need to "defend" Windows, however. It's an OS being sold by a large, for-profit company, that has pros and cons like any other OS. No need to fight MS's fights for them... and given it's 75% desktop marketshare (and like ~95% for gaming), I think they are doing pretty dang well by themselves.
  - supernovae 5y ago
    This topic is about Windows 11... If you buy a signature windows 11 device (surface) - you get all the Microsoft ecosystem because that's probably why/what you're buying into... but it certainly isn't full of ads and my "wuts" are there because i'm calling out the bs :)
- tetraca 5y ago
  > Telemetry:? Same as Ads; should be opt-in, not out. To be fair, if you asked people if they wanted garbage they probably wouldn't say yes. You only get these acceptance of these sorts of impositions when there is no other alternative (or people aren't aware there even is an alternative).
  - castis 5y ago
    Thats not fairness, thats a known dark pattern being pushed on people.
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> but my MacOS does the same MacOS also sucking is not a defense of Windows, especially when Linux distros do better. > Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah.. > Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... i get a lock screen that says what information about the image and how to find out more. I guess it's nice that you haven't seen ads and don't mind them when you do see them, but that doesn't make it okay. > Ads in file manger? wut? https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/9/14872464/windows-10-onedrive-ads-inside-file-explorer https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/9/14872464/windows-10-onedri... > Ads when you change default browser? wut? https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-recommend-edge-users-who-are-trying-install-chrome-or-firefox-windows-10-version-1809 https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-recommend-edge-user... > Telemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this. In Next DNS, Google and Apple have as much, if not more telemetry per device. It can be reduced, possibly stopped, by adding third-party tools. That you need extra tools is unacceptable. And again, Apple and Google also doing bad stuff is very much not an excuse.
- supernovae 5y ago
  I'm only comparing commercial os's here, there are linux's that have app stores that bother you and popups about updates and scheduled reboots and icons in your start/dock/panel that you didn't ask for that come with browsers that populate favorites for you automatically and update themselves as well as reset settings between updates so if you turn off the sponsored crap it often turns back on.. You can remove all the crap and make it what you want.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    > I'm only comparing commercial os's here, Excellent, then RHEL, SUSE, and Ubuntu should have a very good showing. Unless you mean that you're just looking at Windows and MacOS, in which case yeah you're going to have a bad time. > there are linux's that have app stores that bother you and popups about updates [...]and icons in your start/dock/panel that you didn't ask for I suppose that's true, although I find them a lot less annoying. > and scheduled reboots Now you've lost me; what Linux distros automatically reboot in their default configuration? (I know you can make unattended-upgrades do that, but you have to go out of your way to set that up) > that come with browsers that populate favorites for you automatically I think that's moving the goalposts? Was default bookmarks brought up yet? > and update themselves as well as reset settings between updates so if you turn off the sponsored crap it often turns back on.. I'm only aware of that happening at the browser layer, not the OS layer? Indeed much of why I like Linux distros is that when I change a setting it stays changed. Actually, what "sponsored crap" is even coming from the OS vendor in a Linux distro?
throw10920 5y ago
> Not sure why force reboot is a concern. Are you serious? The user could have been doing anything when they rebooted, and there's no valid excuse to forcibly install updates when the user explicitly tells you not to. > Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah.. Yes, there are actually ads in the start menu. Absolutely worth a "rage fest" when it's a desktop operating system on hardware that you own. > Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... Well, they're there. Your computer is not other peoples' computers. If someone says that they saw ads in their lock screen - your personal experience has no bearing on that. > INstalled MS teams? yeah, bummer.. but welcome to modern OS's that all include a default messaging app/service Not an excuse. > elemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this That work imperfectly and whose changes are often reverted "magically". This is an extremely consumer-hostile and ignorant comment.
- supernovae 5y ago
  I've been running Windows 11 since the public preview started and not once on any of the machines I'm responsible for has it rebooted without telling you it will be rebooting or needs to restart. During the preview, you accepted the terms that they did weekly and sometimes biweekly releases that required reboots (because they were often flighting tests of improving the process) - and since release its just been patch tuesday updates. There are no ads in start menu. There are no ads in lock screen MS Teams is just like google hangouts/chat or imessage - you can disable it if you wish but on modern OS's - they tend to favor including communications apps. Telemtry changes done via GPO have only been reverted by mistake and the policy would be re-applied if managed by a policy management system, but you can also block telemetry with NextDNS, Pi Holes and other edge network stuff if it really offens you. This is not consumer hostile. Windows 11 is a HUGE improvement for consumers. They get Windows, They Get Linux (WSL) - They're getting Android App store in beta now. They get an OS that runs on commodity hardware, that gets updated, stays current and patched. That patching typically happens on patch tuesdays - which is cyclic and predictable. It's been that way unless there is a major security patch that is an exception in which case it is best to apply it and deal with the reboots. None of which are consumer-hostile. The consumer enjoys that on a windows device they can use multiple devices and have a shared experience. That is the same demand they enjoy in Android and the same demand they enjoy in MacOS - which is why i referenced those vs say a vanilla dry linux that doesn't do that by default.
yulaow 5y ago
what do you mean "not sure why force reboot is a concern"? It is one of the worst thing ever. I keep each one of my virtual desktops with various projects and related ides/documentation on my linux laptop and I always keep it in standby (indeed right now htop tells me I have this laptop up since 136days). On windows it would randomly and terribly often reboot, even when asleep, because it seems in 2021 an os still need to fully reboot for minor patches WHEN IT wants to.
- supernovae 5y ago
  Microsoft patches on the second Tuesday of every month. It's been that way for years. If you are getting forced reboots with that much frequency, it's not because of Microsoft.
  - yulaow 5y ago
    Microsoft just keep asking until it forces them or put them at "night hours" or while in standby in my bag so I can't refuse anymore because I am not even awake or conscious of what is happening. I want to be in control of the reboots of my own pc, can I? Is it so absurd to pretend it? It is already ridiculous that I even have to forcefully install updates even if I don't want to, and I won't accept the "yeah but unless they do this way no one is gonna install updates". Of course no one is... they ask for a reboot. Maybe just do something as simple as managing your updates so that the reboot is not needed? I never rebooted any of my linux boxes after an update since 2010 and never had a single problem because of it.
    - supernovae 5y ago
      Once a month you get asked to patch if you're using your computer during non active hours. Otherwise, it will reboot on its own during inactive hours. Or you know, if its the second tuesday of the month, when you go on lunch or go grab a snack, you can click update and restart - in Windows 11 the updates are usually slipstreamed and happen quickly. Rebooting once a month isn't a problem for anyone I know. My phones typically get 3+ major updates a year and a monthly update and reboots itself at night.
vetinari 5y ago
> Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah.. Don't reduce this to just apps in start menu. For some reason, some of these apps are "special" and they are reinstalling just seconds after after the user uninstalled them. That is rightfully infuriating and contributes to the user perception that windows is working against them.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  User perception? The users are perceptive, then, because in this behavior, Windows absolutely is working against them.
  - vetinari 5y ago
    It might be not precisely formulated using English; I'm not a native speaker, so forgive me.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      Well, I am a native speaker, and I'm doing worse than you are. I just now realized that my post could come across as criticizing your word choice. I did not mean to do so. I meant to be emphatically agreeing with you.
- supernovae 5y ago
  Right click, remove/uninstall. I do that when i get a new macbook on the dock. I do that when i Get a new iphone or ipad or a Chromebook or an android device. I do that even when I boot up Rhel/Centos/Fedora/Rocky/Mint/Ubuntu

castis 5y ago

> rage fest Not hardly. All of your 'wuts' are easily verifiable via a cursory search. There are ads for various MS services all over Windows. https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/ https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windo... https://www.ghacks.net/2017/03/08/windows-10-turn-off-ads-in-file-explorer/ https://www.ghacks.net/2017/03/08/windows-10-turn-off-ads-in... The problem is that less tech savvy people wont know how to turn this off. They dont need to be advertised inside a product they _bought_. Should be opt-in, not out. MS Teams installation:? Neither linux nor macos install Slack/Discord/etc for you out of the gate. Telemetry:? Same as Ads; should be opt-in, not out.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
> MS Teams installation:? Neither linux nor macos install Slack/Discord/etc for you out of the gate. In all fairness, iMessage probably counts. Not that I consider "but Apple also does bad things!" to be a defense.
- michaelpb 5y ago
  For Linux, many GNOME-based distros shipped with Pidgin (an open source communication program) well-integrated with the desktop environment, really early on compared to other OS's. I'm hesitant to say "Linux did it first", but it was definitely an early adopter. That said, it's hard to compare the two given Pidgin is a general purpose communication tool without vendor lock-in (e.g. it's also an IRC client, has peer-to-peer mode, etc), and most Linux installers let you opt-out of these sorts of bundled software. I think the real issue is some might find MS Teams to be obnoxious software (I suppose, I barely have used it)
michaelpb 5y ago
Yeah, I was really confused by this, since I very clearly recall seeing ads on fresh Windows computers, along with guides etc on how to disable them. I know back when I used Windows I had an entire routine to disable all the annoying stuff, so I suspect they disabled all the annoying stuff and totally forgot. I really don't get the need to "defend" Windows, however. It's an OS being sold by a large, for-profit company, that has pros and cons like any other OS. No need to fight MS's fights for them... and given it's 75% desktop marketshare (and like ~95% for gaming), I think they are doing pretty dang well by themselves.
- supernovae 5y ago
  This topic is about Windows 11... If you buy a signature windows 11 device (surface) - you get all the Microsoft ecosystem because that's probably why/what you're buying into... but it certainly isn't full of ads and my "wuts" are there because i'm calling out the bs :)
tetraca 5y ago
> Telemetry:? Same as Ads; should be opt-in, not out. To be fair, if you asked people if they wanted garbage they probably wouldn't say yes. You only get these acceptance of these sorts of impositions when there is no other alternative (or people aren't aware there even is an alternative).
- castis 5y ago
  Thats not fairness, thats a known dark pattern being pushed on people.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

> but my MacOS does the same MacOS also sucking is not a defense of Windows, especially when Linux distros do better. > Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah.. > Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... i get a lock screen that says what information about the image and how to find out more. I guess it's nice that you haven't seen ads and don't mind them when you do see them, but that doesn't make it okay. > Ads in file manger? wut? https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/9/14872464/windows-10-onedrive-ads-inside-file-explorer https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/9/14872464/windows-10-onedri... > Ads when you change default browser? wut? https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-recommend-edge-users-who-are-trying-install-chrome-or-firefox-windows-10-version-1809 https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-recommend-edge-user... > Telemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this. In Next DNS, Google and Apple have as much, if not more telemetry per device. It can be reduced, possibly stopped, by adding third-party tools. That you need extra tools is unacceptable. And again, Apple and Google also doing bad stuff is very much not an excuse.

supernovae 5y ago
I'm only comparing commercial os's here, there are linux's that have app stores that bother you and popups about updates and scheduled reboots and icons in your start/dock/panel that you didn't ask for that come with browsers that populate favorites for you automatically and update themselves as well as reset settings between updates so if you turn off the sponsored crap it often turns back on.. You can remove all the crap and make it what you want.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > I'm only comparing commercial os's here, Excellent, then RHEL, SUSE, and Ubuntu should have a very good showing. Unless you mean that you're just looking at Windows and MacOS, in which case yeah you're going to have a bad time. > there are linux's that have app stores that bother you and popups about updates [...]and icons in your start/dock/panel that you didn't ask for I suppose that's true, although I find them a lot less annoying. > and scheduled reboots Now you've lost me; what Linux distros automatically reboot in their default configuration? (I know you can make unattended-upgrades do that, but you have to go out of your way to set that up) > that come with browsers that populate favorites for you automatically I think that's moving the goalposts? Was default bookmarks brought up yet? > and update themselves as well as reset settings between updates so if you turn off the sponsored crap it often turns back on.. I'm only aware of that happening at the browser layer, not the OS layer? Indeed much of why I like Linux distros is that when I change a setting it stays changed. Actually, what "sponsored crap" is even coming from the OS vendor in a Linux distro?

throw10920 5y ago

> Not sure why force reboot is a concern. Are you serious? The user could have been doing anything when they rebooted, and there's no valid excuse to forcibly install updates when the user explicitly tells you not to. > Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah.. Yes, there are actually ads in the start menu. Absolutely worth a "rage fest" when it's a desktop operating system on hardware that you own. > Ads in lock screen? never seen anything such... Well, they're there. Your computer is not other peoples' computers. If someone says that they saw ads in their lock screen - your personal experience has no bearing on that. > INstalled MS teams? yeah, bummer.. but welcome to modern OS's that all include a default messaging app/service Not an excuse. > elemetry? can be stopped and blocked and there are tools and services to do this That work imperfectly and whose changes are often reverted "magically". This is an extremely consumer-hostile and ignorant comment.

supernovae 5y ago
I've been running Windows 11 since the public preview started and not once on any of the machines I'm responsible for has it rebooted without telling you it will be rebooting or needs to restart. During the preview, you accepted the terms that they did weekly and sometimes biweekly releases that required reboots (because they were often flighting tests of improving the process) - and since release its just been patch tuesday updates. There are no ads in start menu. There are no ads in lock screen MS Teams is just like google hangouts/chat or imessage - you can disable it if you wish but on modern OS's - they tend to favor including communications apps. Telemtry changes done via GPO have only been reverted by mistake and the policy would be re-applied if managed by a policy management system, but you can also block telemetry with NextDNS, Pi Holes and other edge network stuff if it really offens you. This is not consumer hostile. Windows 11 is a HUGE improvement for consumers. They get Windows, They Get Linux (WSL) - They're getting Android App store in beta now. They get an OS that runs on commodity hardware, that gets updated, stays current and patched. That patching typically happens on patch tuesdays - which is cyclic and predictable. It's been that way unless there is a major security patch that is an exception in which case it is best to apply it and deal with the reboots. None of which are consumer-hostile. The consumer enjoys that on a windows device they can use multiple devices and have a shared experience. That is the same demand they enjoy in Android and the same demand they enjoy in MacOS - which is why i referenced those vs say a vanilla dry linux that doesn't do that by default.

yulaow 5y ago

what do you mean "not sure why force reboot is a concern"? It is one of the worst thing ever. I keep each one of my virtual desktops with various projects and related ides/documentation on my linux laptop and I always keep it in standby (indeed right now htop tells me I have this laptop up since 136days). On windows it would randomly and terribly often reboot, even when asleep, because it seems in 2021 an os still need to fully reboot for minor patches WHEN IT wants to.

supernovae 5y ago
Microsoft patches on the second Tuesday of every month. It's been that way for years. If you are getting forced reboots with that much frequency, it's not because of Microsoft.
- yulaow 5y ago
  Microsoft just keep asking until it forces them or put them at "night hours" or while in standby in my bag so I can't refuse anymore because I am not even awake or conscious of what is happening. I want to be in control of the reboots of my own pc, can I? Is it so absurd to pretend it? It is already ridiculous that I even have to forcefully install updates even if I don't want to, and I won't accept the "yeah but unless they do this way no one is gonna install updates". Of course no one is... they ask for a reboot. Maybe just do something as simple as managing your updates so that the reboot is not needed? I never rebooted any of my linux boxes after an update since 2010 and never had a single problem because of it.
  - supernovae 5y ago
    Once a month you get asked to patch if you're using your computer during non active hours. Otherwise, it will reboot on its own during inactive hours. Or you know, if its the second tuesday of the month, when you go on lunch or go grab a snack, you can click update and restart - in Windows 11 the updates are usually slipstreamed and happen quickly. Rebooting once a month isn't a problem for anyone I know. My phones typically get 3+ major updates a year and a monthly update and reboots itself at night.

vetinari 5y ago

> Ads in the start menu? those are apps... silly... sure.. worthwhile of a rage fest? nah.. Don't reduce this to just apps in start menu. For some reason, some of these apps are "special" and they are reinstalling just seconds after after the user uninstalled them. That is rightfully infuriating and contributes to the user perception that windows is working against them.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
User perception? The users are perceptive, then, because in this behavior, Windows absolutely is working against them.
- vetinari 5y ago
  It might be not precisely formulated using English; I'm not a native speaker, so forgive me.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Well, I am a native speaker, and I'm doing worse than you are. I just now realized that my post could come across as criticizing your word choice. I did not mean to do so. I meant to be emphatically agreeing with you.
supernovae 5y ago
Right click, remove/uninstall. I do that when i get a new macbook on the dock. I do that when i Get a new iphone or ipad or a Chromebook or an android device. I do that even when I boot up Rhel/Centos/Fedora/Rocky/Mint/Ubuntu