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> have been left behind because of systematic racism Is it proven that it’s “systemic racism” that’s holding some people behind?

sumedh 5y ago
What do you think is holding some people behind?
- logicalmonster 5y ago
  As far as I'm aware, there are 3 main categories of explanations. 1) Systemic racism. I'd like to see an example of systemic racism that's holding anybody behind in current year so we can work on it. But to me, the fact that at least some non-trivial percentage of white students reportedly lied about their race for an advantage in life (among Senators who have done the same) is very telling about what systemic advantages actually exist. 2) Cultural deterioration. I think certain aspects of musical and sports culture may play a role, but I don't know if I want to come across as a cranky old man here. 3) Biological differences & IQ. If a scientist as renowned as James Watson isn't allowed to broach this discussion without being immediately unpersoned, who am I to think double-plus ungood thoughts? I'm not sure what's the best explanation within the acceptable boundaries of public discourse.
  - sumedh 5y ago
    > I'd like to see an example of systemic racism that's holding anybody behind in current year so we can work on it. Let say there is Group A who have worked for free for Group B for generations. Group A also does not get home loans for generations Group A does not get business loans for generations. More members of Group A are also put in jail compared to Group B. Group B does not face those same issues, which group do you think will turn out better, which group will have more money and resources, will it be Group A or Group B? For points 2 and 3, do you think Group A and Group started at an equal level to make that comparison or do you think one of those groups was held behind due to the issues which I mentioned above?
    - logicalmonster 5y ago
      The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, which was the question asked, and is the only thing we can fix unless a time machine is invented. As far as your general comment goes, I get your point and I agree that it's a reasonable argument for some time period as an explanation of inequality, but at some point I'd argue that it doesn't hold up and ceases to explain reality. If in 25 years or 50 years or even 100+ more years, if there's still highly unequal economic outcomes, is the only answer still going to be an unequal start? At what point does this argument no longer hold up? I'd say that the current income levels of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... * For one thing, why are certain groups in the lead despite facing many similar significant problems in their history? * For another thing, why are we assuming that a Harrison Bergeron level of equality of outcomes is possible or even desirable among distinct human groups? As far as "More members of Group A are also put in jail compared to Group B" is concerned, I'm not 100% sure of which group you're referring to here, but I'd recommend that you look into FBI crime statistics for a deeper dive into why this may occur. There's 10,000 ways to analyze the reason for complex stats. Is is possible that some groups commit more crimes than others? Is it possible that police spend more time policing certain areas not to punish certain groups, but to try and protect them as best as possible, and therefore there's other explanations for why unequal criminal justice system outcomes happens other than "racism". PS: As an overall comment on your perspective, I'm very distrustful of what I call "God of the Gaps" style arguments. According to Wikipedia, this is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence. For example, many years ago when scholars were debating some idea like how the universe emerged or what causes lightning, they defaulted to "god" or "the gods" did it when there was a gap in knowledge. In current_year, rather than god, we substitute various "isms" and "ists" as the only acceptable answer when the answer to certain questions either aren't known or can't be discussed for some reason. I don't find this style of answer to be intellectually honest or satisfying at all.
      - sumedh 5y ago
        > The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police or killed by them now? > At what point does this argument no longer hold up? When Group A is treated equally as Group B. > of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps.

sumedh 5y ago

What do you think is holding some people behind?

logicalmonster 5y ago
As far as I'm aware, there are 3 main categories of explanations. 1) Systemic racism. I'd like to see an example of systemic racism that's holding anybody behind in current year so we can work on it. But to me, the fact that at least some non-trivial percentage of white students reportedly lied about their race for an advantage in life (among Senators who have done the same) is very telling about what systemic advantages actually exist. 2) Cultural deterioration. I think certain aspects of musical and sports culture may play a role, but I don't know if I want to come across as a cranky old man here. 3) Biological differences & IQ. If a scientist as renowned as James Watson isn't allowed to broach this discussion without being immediately unpersoned, who am I to think double-plus ungood thoughts? I'm not sure what's the best explanation within the acceptable boundaries of public discourse.
- sumedh 5y ago
  > I'd like to see an example of systemic racism that's holding anybody behind in current year so we can work on it. Let say there is Group A who have worked for free for Group B for generations. Group A also does not get home loans for generations Group A does not get business loans for generations. More members of Group A are also put in jail compared to Group B. Group B does not face those same issues, which group do you think will turn out better, which group will have more money and resources, will it be Group A or Group B? For points 2 and 3, do you think Group A and Group started at an equal level to make that comparison or do you think one of those groups was held behind due to the issues which I mentioned above?
  - logicalmonster 5y ago
    The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, which was the question asked, and is the only thing we can fix unless a time machine is invented. As far as your general comment goes, I get your point and I agree that it's a reasonable argument for some time period as an explanation of inequality, but at some point I'd argue that it doesn't hold up and ceases to explain reality. If in 25 years or 50 years or even 100+ more years, if there's still highly unequal economic outcomes, is the only answer still going to be an unequal start? At what point does this argument no longer hold up? I'd say that the current income levels of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_U... * For one thing, why are certain groups in the lead despite facing many similar significant problems in their history? * For another thing, why are we assuming that a Harrison Bergeron level of equality of outcomes is possible or even desirable among distinct human groups? As far as "More members of Group A are also put in jail compared to Group B" is concerned, I'm not 100% sure of which group you're referring to here, but I'd recommend that you look into FBI crime statistics for a deeper dive into why this may occur. There's 10,000 ways to analyze the reason for complex stats. Is is possible that some groups commit more crimes than others? Is it possible that police spend more time policing certain areas not to punish certain groups, but to try and protect them as best as possible, and therefore there's other explanations for why unequal criminal justice system outcomes happens other than "racism". PS: As an overall comment on your perspective, I'm very distrustful of what I call "God of the Gaps" style arguments. According to Wikipedia, this is a theological perspective in which gaps in scientific knowledge are taken to be evidence or proof of God's existence. For example, many years ago when scholars were debating some idea like how the universe emerged or what causes lightning, they defaulted to "god" or "the gods" did it when there was a gap in knowledge. In current_year, rather than god, we substitute various "isms" and "ists" as the only acceptable answer when the answer to certain questions either aren't known or can't be discussed for some reason. I don't find this style of answer to be intellectually honest or satisfying at all.
    - sumedh 5y ago
      > The story you've provided is not an example of unequal rights in current year, The facts I provided are an example of unequal rights in current year, are you claiming that people from Group A are not being discriminated by the police or killed by them now? > At what point does this argument no longer hold up? When Group A is treated equally as Group B. > of different ethnic groups puts a big fly in your argument. Try to understand the argument first, did those ethnic groups face the same issues as Group A? Is there some kind of filter which the other ethnic groups have to go through before they can come to the US? Look up US immigration laws. Not sure I understood your rant about god of the gaps.