3 ms·

Note most of the "alien" words in Dune are not random, but alternative spellings of words from Arabic, French, etc.

by the_af 5y ago

moffkalast 5y ago
So the trick is to first learn all the world's languages, and then go read it?
- the_af 5y ago
  No, of course. Do you think that's what I'm saying? Note there are very few languages used as inspiration in Dune. There's also a glossary. There's also the fact many words, like Jihad, have entered the English-speaking world knowledge (note: when I read the word "Jihad" in Dune, in my teenage years, I thought it was a made up scifi word! And so with many other Arabic words in the text; I also failed to make the connection of "Zensunni" with "Zen" and "Sunni", etc. I still enjoyed the novel immensely). As a general rule, do foreign words tend to baffle you in English prose? They don't confuse me in either Spanish literature -- my native tongue -- nor English, my second language. Having an at least passing knowledge of other languages and cultures will make reading any given novel, in any given language, more enjoyable. You don't have to know the whole languages or cultures of the world.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    I was mostly kidding, I also speak English as a second language. It's just the mild gripe that using foreign words as made up words that aren't made up words is a workaround hack for this issue https://xkcd.com/483 https://xkcd.com/483 Like the characters in a fictional sci-fi story 20k years in the future obviously aren't speaking the language you're reading the story in. It just feels like bad translation.
    - the_af 5y ago
      Ah, good point. Though I don't think there's an overuse of made up words, and most are actual non-English words. I like that in the (otherwise mediocre) "Nightfall" novel by Asimov and Silverberg, the preface states "we are going to use English words because alien words are stupid. Please understand the characters are aliens and are not actually speaking in English. If it makes you happy, substitute "mouth" for "lrrrvkr" and "eyelids" for "ktkskssrrsch") :P The characters of the Dune universe do come from Earth though, and it's clear Herbert was fascinated by the Middle East to the point Arrakis is The Middle East in Space.
      - moffkalast 5y ago
        Yep, that's mostly what I'm talking about as you said with Nightfall. It's often unnecessary for its own sake imo. It's true that Dune is based on that, but languages don't really stay the same. Middle English from 500 years ago is barely readable today. Latin was transformed into French, Spanish, Italian, etc. in a mere 2000 years. None of us can really imagine what would happen in 10 times the timespan, especially with cultures living very separated on different planets which would lead to different dialects and eventually completely separate languages over time. It would still be rooted in the same principle, so the languages wouldn't be completely alien but they sure wouldn't be possible to understand for someone living today.
      - Scarblac 5y ago
        This is why _A Deepness in the Sky_ is such a great book. The reason that you can read it in English, and understand the motivations of the aliens and view them as people at all, suddenly becomes a huge part of the plot.
drclau 5y ago
In other words, they are random for all practical purposes, to a vast majority of readers.
- the_af 5y ago
  Strong disagree. Do you find words from other languages, words sometimes mentioned in news articles (e.g. "Jihad") to be random "for all practical purposes"?
  - drclau 5y ago
    I get what you mean, but I still disagree. "Jihad" is a poor example, because it is essentially a word in the English dictionary too. Say, we use this as a made-up example: "shay' tayir". Do any of the words mean anything to you? If you don't speak Arabic, I doubt it. I just used Google Translate to translate "flying thing" to Arabic (no idea how it sounds to a native speaker). There's a limit to what sounds familiar, and when you cross that limit, you might just randomly make up words and the result would be the same for most people.
    - Scarblac 5y ago
      I have no idea what it means but it still looks vaguely Arabic. Using words that look vaguely Arabic, in a desert setting, adds to the general world building.

Note most of the "alien" words in Dune are not random, but alternative spellings of words from Arabic, French, etc.

by the_af 5y ago

Note most of the "alien" words in Dune are not random, but alternative spellings of words from Arabic, French, etc.

moffkalast 5y ago

So the trick is to first learn all the world's languages, and then go read it?

the_af 5y ago
No, of course. Do you think that's what I'm saying? Note there are very few languages used as inspiration in Dune. There's also a glossary. There's also the fact many words, like Jihad, have entered the English-speaking world knowledge (note: when I read the word "Jihad" in Dune, in my teenage years, I thought it was a made up scifi word! And so with many other Arabic words in the text; I also failed to make the connection of "Zensunni" with "Zen" and "Sunni", etc. I still enjoyed the novel immensely). As a general rule, do foreign words tend to baffle you in English prose? They don't confuse me in either Spanish literature -- my native tongue -- nor English, my second language. Having an at least passing knowledge of other languages and cultures will make reading any given novel, in any given language, more enjoyable. You don't have to know the whole languages or cultures of the world.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  I was mostly kidding, I also speak English as a second language. It's just the mild gripe that using foreign words as made up words that aren't made up words is a workaround hack for this issue https://xkcd.com/483 https://xkcd.com/483 Like the characters in a fictional sci-fi story 20k years in the future obviously aren't speaking the language you're reading the story in. It just feels like bad translation.
  - the_af 5y ago
    Ah, good point. Though I don't think there's an overuse of made up words, and most are actual non-English words. I like that in the (otherwise mediocre) "Nightfall" novel by Asimov and Silverberg, the preface states "we are going to use English words because alien words are stupid. Please understand the characters are aliens and are not actually speaking in English. If it makes you happy, substitute "mouth" for "lrrrvkr" and "eyelids" for "ktkskssrrsch") :P The characters of the Dune universe do come from Earth though, and it's clear Herbert was fascinated by the Middle East to the point Arrakis is The Middle East in Space.
    - moffkalast 5y ago
      Yep, that's mostly what I'm talking about as you said with Nightfall. It's often unnecessary for its own sake imo. It's true that Dune is based on that, but languages don't really stay the same. Middle English from 500 years ago is barely readable today. Latin was transformed into French, Spanish, Italian, etc. in a mere 2000 years. None of us can really imagine what would happen in 10 times the timespan, especially with cultures living very separated on different planets which would lead to different dialects and eventually completely separate languages over time. It would still be rooted in the same principle, so the languages wouldn't be completely alien but they sure wouldn't be possible to understand for someone living today.
    - Scarblac 5y ago
      This is why _A Deepness in the Sky_ is such a great book. The reason that you can read it in English, and understand the motivations of the aliens and view them as people at all, suddenly becomes a huge part of the plot.

drclau 5y ago

In other words, they are random for all practical purposes, to a vast majority of readers.

the_af 5y ago
Strong disagree. Do you find words from other languages, words sometimes mentioned in news articles (e.g. "Jihad") to be random "for all practical purposes"?
- drclau 5y ago
  I get what you mean, but I still disagree. "Jihad" is a poor example, because it is essentially a word in the English dictionary too. Say, we use this as a made-up example: "shay' tayir". Do any of the words mean anything to you? If you don't speak Arabic, I doubt it. I just used Google Translate to translate "flying thing" to Arabic (no idea how it sounds to a native speaker). There's a limit to what sounds familiar, and when you cross that limit, you might just randomly make up words and the result would be the same for most people.
  - Scarblac 5y ago
    I have no idea what it means but it still looks vaguely Arabic. Using words that look vaguely Arabic, in a desert setting, adds to the general world building.