4 ms·

I think there's a pretty good chance this stuff gets incorporated: "On a personal level, we are impressed by Sam’s work so far and invited him to join the CPyt

I think there's a pretty good chance this stuff gets incorporated: "On a personal level, we are impressed by Sam’s work so far and invited him to join the CPython project. I’m happy to report he is interested, and to help him ramp up to become a core developer, I will be mentoring him. Guido and Neil Schemenauer will help me review code for the interpreter bits I’m unfamiliar with."

caffzz 5y ago
Embrace, extend, extinguish. Sam will be in for a rude awakening with these people.
- WayToDoor 5y ago
  This is python, not Microsoft we are talking about
  - clxzzz 5y ago
    Contributors can be extinguished after they have done their duty. One of the most famous contributors ever spoke about "minibosses" the last time he was seen dealing with the Python core bureaucrats. The situation is even worse now.
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      Can you give us more details about this ? Do you have a particular story in mind ? It seems a lot of fresh blood is comming to the python project recently, so I'm interested in what you have to say. But why are you using a throwaway account ? And that you that have been answering the other comments with also newly created accounts ?
      - WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
        I can share the sentiment that PSF and the core team has become something like “old boys club”, and no, new core developers didn’t change this ambience you get when you read their forums/mailing lists and twitters (better avoid twitters though). I don’t have anything about a community being an old boys’ club (would be nice to be in one some day, I reckon it’s what older people’s equivalent of a “safe space” is), it’s that they try hard to pretend they are something else that irks me. But for the life of me I couldn’t find “python” and “minibosses” mentioned in the same document on the internet, except for an integration testing package and a computer game. So I think the story alluded to is bogus. There’s a minuscule likelihood of it all being a twitter drama with key characters then nuking their tweets or deleting their accounts, but if it was of any significance some blog would have echoed it.
        ammar2 5y ago
        The only reference I can find to "minibosses" is this ancient python-dev thread here (https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-July/015712.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-July/01571...) > I'd prefer if you didn't feel the need to play miniboss on the Python project Disclosure: I am a current core dev
blackandsqueaky 5y ago
12 references to people in one statement, 5 referring to the post author, 1 reference to social fraternity membership, 1 statement of authority. I'm not sure if there is a common name for this particular source of discomfort, but that quote definitely contains a lot of it. I'm a historical contributor to the Python source repository, but something about the social structure of the project has changed significantly in recent years that would dissuade me from submitting changes in future. The focus in the statement above no longer feels like it is on the actual productive output of the project itself, and in previous years it wasn't like that, nor needed to be like that. Reminds me of something like the minutes of a professional schmoozer's business lunch, rather than a technical meeting, or something like that. If you have ever seen a stray engineer at an event like this (or had the misfortune of being that engineer), this feeling probably captures the problem well. Whatever it is, I'd love to see less of it.
- stkdump 5y ago
  Without knowing anything about how python is being developed, but I know that the python 2 -> python 3 transition was nearly fatal. And from other projects I know that the easiest way to prevent such events is that you put people in charge. Such a fundamental change as getting rid of the GIL may well trigger a similar situation if not done well (and maybe even if done well). It is the choice to manage the current limited status quo vs risking the future of the project on a bet that an improvement can be made without bifurcating the community again.
  - vclal 5y ago
    The people have put themselves in charge. Some of them haven't even written a single large C extension, so how will they even judge the pain? They are good at self-promotion and corporate backed. Real work in the Python world is done by the quieter types who don't strive to "be in charge".
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      I find it harsh to suggest that the names in that statement didn't do real work. They've been at it for decades. And the newcommer report is outstanding in quality. I'm rather interested in why you feel that way however. Do you think your work, or the work of some specific project/person hasn't received the recognition it deserves ? Or that the attention of the community diverted from important work toward subjects that are more eye catching ?

caffzz 5y ago

Embrace, extend, extinguish. Sam will be in for a rude awakening with these people.

WayToDoor 5y ago
This is python, not Microsoft we are talking about
- clxzzz 5y ago
  Contributors can be extinguished after they have done their duty. One of the most famous contributors ever spoke about "minibosses" the last time he was seen dealing with the Python core bureaucrats. The situation is even worse now.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    Can you give us more details about this ? Do you have a particular story in mind ? It seems a lot of fresh blood is comming to the python project recently, so I'm interested in what you have to say. But why are you using a throwaway account ? And that you that have been answering the other comments with also newly created accounts ?
    - WesolyKubeczek 5y ago
      I can share the sentiment that PSF and the core team has become something like “old boys club”, and no, new core developers didn’t change this ambience you get when you read their forums/mailing lists and twitters (better avoid twitters though). I don’t have anything about a community being an old boys’ club (would be nice to be in one some day, I reckon it’s what older people’s equivalent of a “safe space” is), it’s that they try hard to pretend they are something else that irks me. But for the life of me I couldn’t find “python” and “minibosses” mentioned in the same document on the internet, except for an integration testing package and a computer game. So I think the story alluded to is bogus. There’s a minuscule likelihood of it all being a twitter drama with key characters then nuking their tweets or deleting their accounts, but if it was of any significance some blog would have echoed it.
      - ammar2 5y ago
        The only reference I can find to "minibosses" is this ancient python-dev thread here (https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-July/015712.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-July/01571...) > I'd prefer if you didn't feel the need to play miniboss on the Python project Disclosure: I am a current core dev

blackandsqueaky 5y ago

12 references to people in one statement, 5 referring to the post author, 1 reference to social fraternity membership, 1 statement of authority. I'm not sure if there is a common name for this particular source of discomfort, but that quote definitely contains a lot of it. I'm a historical contributor to the Python source repository, but something about the social structure of the project has changed significantly in recent years that would dissuade me from submitting changes in future. The focus in the statement above no longer feels like it is on the actual productive output of the project itself, and in previous years it wasn't like that, nor needed to be like that. Reminds me of something like the minutes of a professional schmoozer's business lunch, rather than a technical meeting, or something like that. If you have ever seen a stray engineer at an event like this (or had the misfortune of being that engineer), this feeling probably captures the problem well. Whatever it is, I'd love to see less of it.

stkdump 5y ago
Without knowing anything about how python is being developed, but I know that the python 2 -> python 3 transition was nearly fatal. And from other projects I know that the easiest way to prevent such events is that you put people in charge. Such a fundamental change as getting rid of the GIL may well trigger a similar situation if not done well (and maybe even if done well). It is the choice to manage the current limited status quo vs risking the future of the project on a bet that an improvement can be made without bifurcating the community again.
- vclal 5y ago
  The people have put themselves in charge. Some of them haven't even written a single large C extension, so how will they even judge the pain? They are good at self-promotion and corporate backed. Real work in the Python world is done by the quieter types who don't strive to "be in charge".
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    I find it harsh to suggest that the names in that statement didn't do real work. They've been at it for decades. And the newcommer report is outstanding in quality. I'm rather interested in why you feel that way however. Do you think your work, or the work of some specific project/person hasn't received the recognition it deserves ? Or that the attention of the community diverted from important work toward subjects that are more eye catching ?