3 ms·

> I have been expecting us to hit a point where we have ambient computing, chips that are so efficient that they can harvest ambient RF or heat energy to perfor

> I have been expecting us to hit a point where we have ambient computing, chips that are so efficient that they can harvest ambient RF or heat energy to perform a useful amount of computation. This seems extremely unlikely to me, do you have a source? First off, you have the obvious problem of reducing chip power. Even the best CPUs today use ~15W. That's significant. Secondly, you have the problem of extracting power from ambient air. That's also very very hard - just because something is hot doesn't mean you can extract energy from it. You need a gradient. Your chip will sit close to ambient, maybe even a little higher. I find it hard to believe you will get any power that way.

gumby 5y ago
> Even the best CPUs today use ~15W. That's significant. There are tons of microcontrollers available today that run on less than mA at 3 V. Sure, they don’t have the power of an M1 but with a bunch of them doing a bunch of lazy computing in the field they can do a lot of sensing and casual computing. Perhaps 60 years from now we will have solved the plastics-in-the-environment problem (and cigarette buts) but be plagued with stray processing power too expensive to clean up and still operating too. And surely some hacker will be operating a garbage dump as a cryptocurrency mine.
dougmwne 5y ago
Sure, the basic version of this exists now and is being sold for less than a dollar. As chips get even more efficient, these sorts of devices will be able to break into new use cases. https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/12/28/battery-free-iot-these-tiny-printable-computers-harvest-energy-from-radio-waves/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/12/28/battery...
- tdeck 5y ago
  Things like that work for communication at very short ranges (Bluetooth has a pretty limited range). If you want something to draw power from a distant transmitter and to have any ability at all to do I/O (including RF output), you need a much bigger antenna to capture more energy. You'd essentially need something like this loop antenna crystal radio: http://makearadio.com/crystal/19.php http://makearadio.com/crystal/19.php
  - dougmwne 5y ago
    These Wiliot chips already draw power from distant LTE towers, can do I/O through GPIO and can communicate back 20 meters through a Bluetooth LE ping. Imagine a new smart thermostat that gathered temperature data from a dozen unpowered temperature sensors throughout your home, adjusted accordingly, then sent you a report on your home's insulation performance. These tags could be used for that today. https://support.wiliot.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059009614-Wiliot-Extended-Overview https://support.wiliot.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059009614-Wi...
- omegalulw 5y ago
  As the other commenter said, this seems to only be for very short range communication. The article itself compares it primarily to RFID. I'm skeptical that extracting power from ambient RF will scale because there's not that much power _bt design_. Commercial equipment that emits any radiation needs to hit power specs and those regulations are very serious.
  - dougmwne 5y ago
    That's a bogus comparison in my opinion. Passive RFID is nothing but a digital QR code that can be read with RF. It has no more than a meter of range. It's not what we would call a computer in any sense of the word. These Wiliot tags fit the definition of a computer. They have a 1mhz arm CPU, 2kb RAM, 64kb ROM, GPIO inputs & outputs and sensors. They can harvest cellular RF energy and put out a Bluetooth LE ping that can be read from 20 meters. The specs are quite similar to my first computer, the Apple 2E. They are based on a 40nm process, so imagine a 4nm version or a 400 angstrom version. We are not going to be using battery-less phones, but these kinds of energy harvesting IOT chips have a lot of interesting future applications. Shoes that give fitness data to your phone? Sunglasses that give you UV alerts? Detergent that gives you a notification when it's low? Egg salad that that texts you when you forget it on the counter? Ketchup that emails you when it's expired? Just some silly examples, but no more silly than half the IOT that's already out there. https://support.wiliot.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059009614-Wiliot-Extended-Overview https://support.wiliot.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059009614-Wi...

gumby 5y ago

> Even the best CPUs today use ~15W. That's significant. There are tons of microcontrollers available today that run on less than mA at 3 V. Sure, they don’t have the power of an M1 but with a bunch of them doing a bunch of lazy computing in the field they can do a lot of sensing and casual computing. Perhaps 60 years from now we will have solved the plastics-in-the-environment problem (and cigarette buts) but be plagued with stray processing power too expensive to clean up and still operating too. And surely some hacker will be operating a garbage dump as a cryptocurrency mine.

dougmwne 5y ago

Sure, the basic version of this exists now and is being sold for less than a dollar. As chips get even more efficient, these sorts of devices will be able to break into new use cases. https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/12/28/battery-free-iot-these-tiny-printable-computers-harvest-energy-from-radio-waves/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2021/12/28/battery...

tdeck 5y ago
Things like that work for communication at very short ranges (Bluetooth has a pretty limited range). If you want something to draw power from a distant transmitter and to have any ability at all to do I/O (including RF output), you need a much bigger antenna to capture more energy. You'd essentially need something like this loop antenna crystal radio: http://makearadio.com/crystal/19.php http://makearadio.com/crystal/19.php
- dougmwne 5y ago
  These Wiliot chips already draw power from distant LTE towers, can do I/O through GPIO and can communicate back 20 meters through a Bluetooth LE ping. Imagine a new smart thermostat that gathered temperature data from a dozen unpowered temperature sensors throughout your home, adjusted accordingly, then sent you a report on your home's insulation performance. These tags could be used for that today. https://support.wiliot.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059009614-Wiliot-Extended-Overview https://support.wiliot.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059009614-Wi...
omegalulw 5y ago
As the other commenter said, this seems to only be for very short range communication. The article itself compares it primarily to RFID. I'm skeptical that extracting power from ambient RF will scale because there's not that much power _bt design_. Commercial equipment that emits any radiation needs to hit power specs and those regulations are very serious.
- dougmwne 5y ago
  That's a bogus comparison in my opinion. Passive RFID is nothing but a digital QR code that can be read with RF. It has no more than a meter of range. It's not what we would call a computer in any sense of the word. These Wiliot tags fit the definition of a computer. They have a 1mhz arm CPU, 2kb RAM, 64kb ROM, GPIO inputs & outputs and sensors. They can harvest cellular RF energy and put out a Bluetooth LE ping that can be read from 20 meters. The specs are quite similar to my first computer, the Apple 2E. They are based on a 40nm process, so imagine a 4nm version or a 400 angstrom version. We are not going to be using battery-less phones, but these kinds of energy harvesting IOT chips have a lot of interesting future applications. Shoes that give fitness data to your phone? Sunglasses that give you UV alerts? Detergent that gives you a notification when it's low? Egg salad that that texts you when you forget it on the counter? Ketchup that emails you when it's expired? Just some silly examples, but no more silly than half the IOT that's already out there. https://support.wiliot.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059009614-Wiliot-Extended-Overview https://support.wiliot.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059009614-Wi...