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Although I'm more willing to look at positive advancements in China than most westerners that I know, it has been interesting to me to see similar youtubers eve

Although I'm more willing to look at positive advancements in China than most westerners that I know, it has been interesting to me to see similar youtubers eventually leave china after years of positive videos and just go on a rant about everything that's not good culturally there. Like in a mic-drop kind of way as if they've made a resolve to never go back.

neom 5y ago
Off topic a bit. I don't watch serpentza regularly but I did see that happen with him, although I must say the manner of the switch and the stories he tells on "the other side" make me uneasy that there isn't something more going on there, but who knows. Have there been others that are as dramatic as him?
- vmception 5y ago
  Not really sure, I also personally some people that became disillusioned after being very tolerant. (I also know people that integrate very well in that society and like what's going on more than their experience in western societies.) When I clicked the above youtube link, I saw the similarities to reviewing electronics and advancements with smiling faces that serpentza used to have, before doing a total 180.
  - neom 5y ago
    Yeah I've also seen that a few times with people I know on a smaller scale. For now I just use the lens of: We know when people are in china to be successful publishing about china they need to apply a rose coloured filter. And. It's difficult/probably not a good idea to apply non-china-thinking to china. The scale, culture and mindset is just so different, taking a Western view of almost any aspect of china is always going to be super hard and potentially a fools errand. I think that's why it often ends up feeling so extreme, because the content creator has to navigate these two things and I don't see it being anything other than very jarring to the content consumer. (I try to keep china in perspective for myself. Building a startup to over 200 was super super hard. Emerging a billion people.. hmf. I don't always agree with China, but I do believe emerging a billion people is hard)
    - vmception 5y ago
      That's pretty much my conclusion as well. I think I understand China pretty well, I don't think I could even explain it to help westerners without losing my standing in China. So there is always going to be this disconnect, and of course even that would embolden westerners to stick with their current conclusion about the place. There is just a lot of unsaid things that are still important to understand, and I think all societies have various topics that you will never get a satisfactorily honest opinion about from their people. So China just isn't different enough for me to only focus on things I don't like about China, thats my real conclusion: its just not different enough to treat them differently. I would say skimming major events in the last 200 years of Chinese history, as well as their current constitution will help make China make a lot of sense.
      - neom 5y ago
        I think what you said is very interesting. I read between some of the lines and understand you have a genuine perspective (that we could probably spend hours and hours over drinks discussing) but yeah, in all my "china thought swirling" I do about the whole emerging thing, I come to the same place, I go back and forth on your conclusion. Right now I'm on the other side, but last year I wasn't, and I tend to oscillate every year or so. The problem is by the time the history book is written about the lessons learned, translated to english, and makes it's way to a doc someone in Canada could watch... I'll be long gone, so I doubt I'll ever really know.
lifeplusplus 5y ago
They can't be critical while living there due to fear of disappearing forever on account of criticizing China or CCP
- vmception 5y ago
  also important to understand that many people are not living in fear there and are comfortable. this seems to be a point that other people in the west seem not willing to believe. a loose analogy would be that its not dissimilar from living in a theme park and understanding that you can't watch porn there or criticize the owners, and a whole host of other arbitrary prohibitions that we are only used to seeing in private sector. most of the other inhabitants in said theme park wouldn't have cared or thought of doing the things that are forbidden and also simply don't expect for a different kind of governing structure to exist. that doesn't mean that people disappearing (under a form of due process we just happen to not respect) is being condoned, no different than people disappearing in a theme park and being beat up by security would be condoned. its all important to understand.
  - lifeplusplus 5y ago
    Question was that why do people turn critical once they leave, answer to which is they can't be critical if it has potential to upend your life permanently. The fact people are living there happily has no relation to the points being discussed. Cattles can live a long happy life too, doesn't mean they are free, just happy. As long as you follow the rules set by authoritative govt you do have an ability to live an uneventful life.
    - vmception 5y ago
      okay, yes, that was the question. Right, we know they also can't be critical as almost any questioning would be seen as criticism and violate that part of the constitution. But to do a complete 180 is different than merely being annoyed that the society doesn't support the slightest criticism.
      - 5y ago

neom 5y ago

Off topic a bit. I don't watch serpentza regularly but I did see that happen with him, although I must say the manner of the switch and the stories he tells on "the other side" make me uneasy that there isn't something more going on there, but who knows. Have there been others that are as dramatic as him?

vmception 5y ago
Not really sure, I also personally some people that became disillusioned after being very tolerant. (I also know people that integrate very well in that society and like what's going on more than their experience in western societies.) When I clicked the above youtube link, I saw the similarities to reviewing electronics and advancements with smiling faces that serpentza used to have, before doing a total 180.
- neom 5y ago
  Yeah I've also seen that a few times with people I know on a smaller scale. For now I just use the lens of: We know when people are in china to be successful publishing about china they need to apply a rose coloured filter. And. It's difficult/probably not a good idea to apply non-china-thinking to china. The scale, culture and mindset is just so different, taking a Western view of almost any aspect of china is always going to be super hard and potentially a fools errand. I think that's why it often ends up feeling so extreme, because the content creator has to navigate these two things and I don't see it being anything other than very jarring to the content consumer. (I try to keep china in perspective for myself. Building a startup to over 200 was super super hard. Emerging a billion people.. hmf. I don't always agree with China, but I do believe emerging a billion people is hard)
  - vmception 5y ago
    That's pretty much my conclusion as well. I think I understand China pretty well, I don't think I could even explain it to help westerners without losing my standing in China. So there is always going to be this disconnect, and of course even that would embolden westerners to stick with their current conclusion about the place. There is just a lot of unsaid things that are still important to understand, and I think all societies have various topics that you will never get a satisfactorily honest opinion about from their people. So China just isn't different enough for me to only focus on things I don't like about China, thats my real conclusion: its just not different enough to treat them differently. I would say skimming major events in the last 200 years of Chinese history, as well as their current constitution will help make China make a lot of sense.
    - neom 5y ago
      I think what you said is very interesting. I read between some of the lines and understand you have a genuine perspective (that we could probably spend hours and hours over drinks discussing) but yeah, in all my "china thought swirling" I do about the whole emerging thing, I come to the same place, I go back and forth on your conclusion. Right now I'm on the other side, but last year I wasn't, and I tend to oscillate every year or so. The problem is by the time the history book is written about the lessons learned, translated to english, and makes it's way to a doc someone in Canada could watch... I'll be long gone, so I doubt I'll ever really know.

lifeplusplus 5y ago

They can't be critical while living there due to fear of disappearing forever on account of criticizing China or CCP

vmception 5y ago
also important to understand that many people are not living in fear there and are comfortable. this seems to be a point that other people in the west seem not willing to believe. a loose analogy would be that its not dissimilar from living in a theme park and understanding that you can't watch porn there or criticize the owners, and a whole host of other arbitrary prohibitions that we are only used to seeing in private sector. most of the other inhabitants in said theme park wouldn't have cared or thought of doing the things that are forbidden and also simply don't expect for a different kind of governing structure to exist. that doesn't mean that people disappearing (under a form of due process we just happen to not respect) is being condoned, no different than people disappearing in a theme park and being beat up by security would be condoned. its all important to understand.
- lifeplusplus 5y ago
  Question was that why do people turn critical once they leave, answer to which is they can't be critical if it has potential to upend your life permanently. The fact people are living there happily has no relation to the points being discussed. Cattles can live a long happy life too, doesn't mean they are free, just happy. As long as you follow the rules set by authoritative govt you do have an ability to live an uneventful life.
  - vmception 5y ago
    okay, yes, that was the question. Right, we know they also can't be critical as almost any questioning would be seen as criticism and violate that part of the constitution. But to do a complete 180 is different than merely being annoyed that the society doesn't support the slightest criticism.
    - 5y ago