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I made three posts in quick succession with regards to Israel, each time I kept it short and sweet and what I said was directly relevant to the posts I was resp

by marcf 15y ago

I made three posts in quick succession with regards to Israel, each time I kept it short and sweet and what I said was directly relevant to the posts I was responding to. #1. Two postings I responded where saying in effect that culturally Israel is similar to Europe, one of them was yours. I said that is true, except when it comes to its occupation. With regards to the occupation, its is related human rights issues, Israel is very unlike modern Europe. That is a completely true observation and it was appropriate in the context I posted it. #2. A third response was with regards to someone else saying that Israel played in the European league because it wanted to avoid matches with Syria and Iran, but the actual reason is that Israel viewed very negatively by the majority of its neighbors in the Arab world primarily because of its treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. It isn't just about Syria and Iran, but rather about Jordan, Egypt and basically every other state in the region. Again that is a completely true observation and appropriate in the context.

philwelch 15y ago
As far as human rights go, I think you've forgotten that Yugoslavia is part of Europe. There are also parallels with Northern Ireland. And as far as Israel's relations with the Arab countries, it has more to do with anti-Semitism. Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is no worse--and in many respects better--than that of Jordan and Egypt. EDIT: Before you think of responding to this and disagreeing with me, keep in mind--this is exactly how every Israel flamewar everywhere else on the internet ever starts. We're all decently informed people here, well aware of the situation in the Middle East. It's sufficient to point out that Israel maintains relationships with European countries due to its strained relations with its Arab neighbors. It does no good to drag out your own opinions of who is in the right and who is in the wrong. Saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East so they play football matches against European countries" makes a valid point. Saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East because Israel practices apartheid", or for that matter saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East because the Arabs are anti-Semitic zealots" is flamebait and doesn't belong on Hacker News.
- marcf 15y ago
  You just detailed in your response why I am wrong and you are right and then you finish it off saying that if I do something similar but with opinions that differ from yours, I will be breaking the rules. It is really hard to know how to respond to a comment like that except to back away slowly.
  - philwelch 15y ago
    Hm, that's not what I meant, but I can see why you read it that way. I'm sorry for being unclear. Hopefully I can clarify what I meant a little. I don't think your claims about Israel are helpful for two reasons. One is because neither of your claims are statements of fact. Your first claim was: With regards to the occupation, its is related human rights issues, Israel is very unlike modern Europe. First, it's a matter of opinion--and rather heated debate--that Israel is responsible for any human rights issues related to the Palestinians. Some would say that Israel is only doing what they need to in order to defend themselves. Secondly, modern Europe has faced several human rights issues of its own. There was considerable violence against civilians during the dissolution of Yugoslavia, as well as human rights issues in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Granting for the sake of argument that Israel has human rights issues, they're not unlike Europe in that respect. Your second claim was: Israel viewed very negatively by the majority of its neighbors in the Arab world primarily because of its treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories This is speculative, and again there is another side to the story. Israel's Arab neighbors invaded or planned to invade Israel on two separate occasions before Israel even occupied the Palestinian territories. One of the reasons Israel even occupies those territories--which used to belong to Jordan and Egypt--is because Jordan and Egypt have refused to take the territories back. So, the first reason your claims aren't helpful is because both of your claims are highly controversial claims, far from the "true observations" you claim them to be. The second reason your claims aren't helpful is because a lot of people (yourself included, by all appearances) have very strong emotions about the situation in Israel and the occupied territories, and bringing up these controversies only conjures up all kinds of strong emotions and threatens to start irrelevant, tangential arguments. It's bad form to start arguments about Israel in unrelated threads for the same reason it's bad form to compare people to the Nazis. Or, as the guidelines say, Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them.

by marcf 15y ago

philwelch 15y ago

As far as human rights go, I think you've forgotten that Yugoslavia is part of Europe. There are also parallels with Northern Ireland. And as far as Israel's relations with the Arab countries, it has more to do with anti-Semitism. Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is no worse--and in many respects better--than that of Jordan and Egypt. EDIT: Before you think of responding to this and disagreeing with me, keep in mind--this is exactly how every Israel flamewar everywhere else on the internet ever starts. We're all decently informed people here, well aware of the situation in the Middle East. It's sufficient to point out that Israel maintains relationships with European countries due to its strained relations with its Arab neighbors. It does no good to drag out your own opinions of who is in the right and who is in the wrong. Saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East so they play football matches against European countries" makes a valid point. Saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East because Israel practices apartheid", or for that matter saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East because the Arabs are anti-Semitic zealots" is flamebait and doesn't belong on Hacker News.

marcf 15y ago
You just detailed in your response why I am wrong and you are right and then you finish it off saying that if I do something similar but with opinions that differ from yours, I will be breaking the rules. It is really hard to know how to respond to a comment like that except to back away slowly.
- philwelch 15y ago
  Hm, that's not what I meant, but I can see why you read it that way. I'm sorry for being unclear. Hopefully I can clarify what I meant a little. I don't think your claims about Israel are helpful for two reasons. One is because neither of your claims are statements of fact. Your first claim was: With regards to the occupation, its is related human rights issues, Israel is very unlike modern Europe. First, it's a matter of opinion--and rather heated debate--that Israel is responsible for any human rights issues related to the Palestinians. Some would say that Israel is only doing what they need to in order to defend themselves. Secondly, modern Europe has faced several human rights issues of its own. There was considerable violence against civilians during the dissolution of Yugoslavia, as well as human rights issues in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Granting for the sake of argument that Israel has human rights issues, they're not unlike Europe in that respect. Your second claim was: Israel viewed very negatively by the majority of its neighbors in the Arab world primarily because of its treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories This is speculative, and again there is another side to the story. Israel's Arab neighbors invaded or planned to invade Israel on two separate occasions before Israel even occupied the Palestinian territories. One of the reasons Israel even occupies those territories--which used to belong to Jordan and Egypt--is because Jordan and Egypt have refused to take the territories back. So, the first reason your claims aren't helpful is because both of your claims are highly controversial claims, far from the "true observations" you claim them to be. The second reason your claims aren't helpful is because a lot of people (yourself included, by all appearances) have very strong emotions about the situation in Israel and the occupied territories, and bringing up these controversies only conjures up all kinds of strong emotions and threatens to start irrelevant, tangential arguments. It's bad form to start arguments about Israel in unrelated threads for the same reason it's bad form to compare people to the Nazis. Or, as the guidelines say, Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them.