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It's important to point out that many scientists were called conspiracy theorists by mainstream media after predicting (long before the vaccine rollouts) that m

It's important to point out that many scientists were called conspiracy theorists by mainstream media after predicting (long before the vaccine rollouts) that mass vaccinations would cause the virus to mutate faster and that we'd all be worse off (as is clearly the case)... Mainstream media and big pharma are corrupt. The people responsible are criminals and should be brought to justice. COVID19 is not lethal for the majority of people. We will all die of something eventually but if some people are particularly fixated on COVID19, they are welcome to spend more time at home (instead of going out to meet people) and they can try to find remote work or some job which doesn't require so much contact with other people. Anyone could easily bring their risk of catching COVID19 to nearly 0% by limiting social contact, proper distancing, hand-washing, mask-wearing, choosing the right kind of job (or retiring), getting plenty of sunlight, vitamin D supplements, living outside of urban centers, not travelling too much, etc... All of these things are going to be way more effective at protecting individuals from COVID19 than any vaccine and these things don't require ruining other people's lives. Also, if you don't want to risk dying of COVID19, you can just go live in a remote village/town; nobody is forcing you to live in a densely populated city. Big cities are reservoirs for the COVID19 virus. Other people can kill you; this is a fact of life which we have to accept. If you choose to constantly surround yourself with many people, then you're taking the risk, nobody else owes you protection from whatever viruses they may harbor inside their bodies without their knowledge. The hospital system will be fine. If hospitals become too crowded with COVID19 patients; they can just start turning them away! People will come up with solutions; temporary/makeshift COVID19 hospitals, home-delivered ventilators, etc... Maybe governments can fund this if it comes to that?

JJzD 5y ago
There is so much wrong with this. Let's start with the apparent numbers you are accepting. Millions of Americans will die directly from infections, millions will need life support, and an additional ten million will die as a direct consequence of an overwhelmed health care system. With those numbers it's hard to imagine a family not hit with these enormous consequences, where you seem to gloss over. Secondary, the virus has no will of it's own, it will just randomly mutate, and if a stronger variant appears it will do so, if there are vaccins or not. However, you are advocating to roll the dice millions time more, just because there was already a very small chance this gets worse, and you think that is a good idea?
- cryptica 5y ago
  At least 329 million Americans will die over the next 100 years no matter what we do; that's 3.29 million per year on average. So far less than 800K people died from COVID19 in almost 2 years... That's 400K per year; ~12% of all deaths... OK, this is a very rough/approximate calculation but is it worth ruining people's lives and taking away people's freedoms over a slight increase in death rate? This isn't the black plague. Personally, I wouldn't accept any significant change in my lifestyle for anything less than 100% (2x) increase in my chance of death... So I won't even bat an eyelash over a 12% increase (and I'm in a not-at-risk group so it's probably way less for me); and especially if I have some control over the risk... Some smokers take on much bigger risks by continuing to smoke; the risk is worth it to them - Who are we to judge? This pandemic has been blown out of proportion. The media emotional 'contagion' has had a bigger negative impact on people's lives than the actual virus. Did everyone suddenly forget the emotional 'contagion' study which Facebook did some years ago? https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1747016115579531 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/17470161155795... The result of that study was that people's emotions could be manipulated without their knowledge... How do we know that what we're dealing with now isn't just Facebook and the media putting the results of that study into practice? It sure looks that way. I can definitely feel myself being manipulated by the media and I suspect that others who are more suggestible than me are even more so and less likely to notice it...
  - YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
    According to the CDC and the national vital statistics system, the number of deaths, in America, in 2019 was 2,854,838. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Using your math, there have been 738k deaths in ~1.7 years, or roughly 434k deaths per year yielding 15%, or 1 out of 6 deaths. I just want to point out that death is not the only bad outcome of Covid. Medical researchers are finding evidence of memory loss and brain fog, long term disability, and long recovery times. https://www.foxnews.com/health/covid-side-effects-could-include-memory-loss-brain-fog-researchers-find https://www.foxnews.com/health/covid-side-effects-could-incl... Also, 2x chance of death is a pretty high threshold! (I don't mean any criticism, just surprise.) But this all focuses on the role of an individual and not the on role of a community. Smokers don't just harm themselves; second-hand smoke harms other people. Indoor smoking bans are for communal health, they aren't primarily meant to impact the individual smokers, who just go outside. Similarly, Covid-19 harms others if they get infected, and it also harms people who have put off non-emergency surgeries when hospitals are overcrowded. .. Re: Emotional Contagion. If I remember correctly, the effects that were reported in the Facebook study were small, on the order of a change from 5.1 to 5.3 positive emotion words. (But it has been a while, so take that with a grain of salt.) > How do we know that what we're dealing with now isn't just Facebook and the media putting the results of that study into practice? This is an interesting question. Consider that lumping 'the media' together with Facebook means that most media outlets in every country (hundreds of thousands of people with their own agendas, political slants, biases, motivations, and who don't speak the same language) are now cooperating with one of the few companies widely credited with decimating newsroom web-traffic and by extension newsroom profits.
YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
There are clearly people in positions of power at pharmaceutical companies that need to be brought to justice. The Opioid epidemic, Johnson and Johnson's issue with talc/baby-powder... It's disgusting. And yes, individuals can take a certain amount of responsibility to limit their risk. > The hospital system will be fine. If hospitals become too crowded with COVID19 patients; they can just start turning them away! People will come up with solutions; temporary/makeshift COVID19 hospitals, home-delivered ventilators, etc... Maybe governments can fund this if it comes to that? If someone has a 'needs to go to a hospital' case of covid, if the disease is affecting their lungs and body poorly enough, then they will need attention from people who have medical degrees. If they are all busy working in overcrowded hospitals which are in triage / ration-care mode, who will staff the alternative care solutions you've outlined? Especially if hospital demand outstrips hospital supply?
HatchedLake721 5y ago
Ouch. Your arguments… are like from early 2020? Except the live in the remote town, your other points have been refuted and are easily disproven with some basic research skills. My home country with silly low vaccination rates just introduced 8pm curfew last week, a neighboring country is sending additional ventilators, routine healthcare and surgeries have been stopped, government is making plans of sending patients abroad if the infection and hospitalization rates don’t change and they’re now talking about targeted mobilization to help healthcare staff, who are crunching insane hours to save people lives. But hey ho, “Honey, come look! I’ve found some information all the world’s scientists and doctors have missed.”, said an HN commenter. Just makes me sad. If you think you’re the smartest person in the world, you need to look in the mirror twice.

JJzD 5y ago

There is so much wrong with this. Let's start with the apparent numbers you are accepting. Millions of Americans will die directly from infections, millions will need life support, and an additional ten million will die as a direct consequence of an overwhelmed health care system. With those numbers it's hard to imagine a family not hit with these enormous consequences, where you seem to gloss over. Secondary, the virus has no will of it's own, it will just randomly mutate, and if a stronger variant appears it will do so, if there are vaccins or not. However, you are advocating to roll the dice millions time more, just because there was already a very small chance this gets worse, and you think that is a good idea?

cryptica 5y ago
At least 329 million Americans will die over the next 100 years no matter what we do; that's 3.29 million per year on average. So far less than 800K people died from COVID19 in almost 2 years... That's 400K per year; ~12% of all deaths... OK, this is a very rough/approximate calculation but is it worth ruining people's lives and taking away people's freedoms over a slight increase in death rate? This isn't the black plague. Personally, I wouldn't accept any significant change in my lifestyle for anything less than 100% (2x) increase in my chance of death... So I won't even bat an eyelash over a 12% increase (and I'm in a not-at-risk group so it's probably way less for me); and especially if I have some control over the risk... Some smokers take on much bigger risks by continuing to smoke; the risk is worth it to them - Who are we to judge? This pandemic has been blown out of proportion. The media emotional 'contagion' has had a bigger negative impact on people's lives than the actual virus. Did everyone suddenly forget the emotional 'contagion' study which Facebook did some years ago? https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1747016115579531 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/17470161155795... The result of that study was that people's emotions could be manipulated without their knowledge... How do we know that what we're dealing with now isn't just Facebook and the media putting the results of that study into practice? It sure looks that way. I can definitely feel myself being manipulated by the media and I suspect that others who are more suggestible than me are even more so and less likely to notice it...
- YossarianFrPrez 5y ago
  According to the CDC and the national vital statistics system, the number of deaths, in America, in 2019 was 2,854,838. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Using your math, there have been 738k deaths in ~1.7 years, or roughly 434k deaths per year yielding 15%, or 1 out of 6 deaths. I just want to point out that death is not the only bad outcome of Covid. Medical researchers are finding evidence of memory loss and brain fog, long term disability, and long recovery times. https://www.foxnews.com/health/covid-side-effects-could-include-memory-loss-brain-fog-researchers-find https://www.foxnews.com/health/covid-side-effects-could-incl... Also, 2x chance of death is a pretty high threshold! (I don't mean any criticism, just surprise.) But this all focuses on the role of an individual and not the on role of a community. Smokers don't just harm themselves; second-hand smoke harms other people. Indoor smoking bans are for communal health, they aren't primarily meant to impact the individual smokers, who just go outside. Similarly, Covid-19 harms others if they get infected, and it also harms people who have put off non-emergency surgeries when hospitals are overcrowded. .. Re: Emotional Contagion. If I remember correctly, the effects that were reported in the Facebook study were small, on the order of a change from 5.1 to 5.3 positive emotion words. (But it has been a while, so take that with a grain of salt.) > How do we know that what we're dealing with now isn't just Facebook and the media putting the results of that study into practice? This is an interesting question. Consider that lumping 'the media' together with Facebook means that most media outlets in every country (hundreds of thousands of people with their own agendas, political slants, biases, motivations, and who don't speak the same language) are now cooperating with one of the few companies widely credited with decimating newsroom web-traffic and by extension newsroom profits.

YossarianFrPrez 5y ago

There are clearly people in positions of power at pharmaceutical companies that need to be brought to justice. The Opioid epidemic, Johnson and Johnson's issue with talc/baby-powder... It's disgusting. And yes, individuals can take a certain amount of responsibility to limit their risk. > The hospital system will be fine. If hospitals become too crowded with COVID19 patients; they can just start turning them away! People will come up with solutions; temporary/makeshift COVID19 hospitals, home-delivered ventilators, etc... Maybe governments can fund this if it comes to that? If someone has a 'needs to go to a hospital' case of covid, if the disease is affecting their lungs and body poorly enough, then they will need attention from people who have medical degrees. If they are all busy working in overcrowded hospitals which are in triage / ration-care mode, who will staff the alternative care solutions you've outlined? Especially if hospital demand outstrips hospital supply?

HatchedLake721 5y ago

Ouch. Your arguments… are like from early 2020? Except the live in the remote town, your other points have been refuted and are easily disproven with some basic research skills. My home country with silly low vaccination rates just introduced 8pm curfew last week, a neighboring country is sending additional ventilators, routine healthcare and surgeries have been stopped, government is making plans of sending patients abroad if the infection and hospitalization rates don’t change and they’re now talking about targeted mobilization to help healthcare staff, who are crunching insane hours to save people lives. But hey ho, “Honey, come look! I’ve found some information all the world’s scientists and doctors have missed.”, said an HN commenter. Just makes me sad. If you think you’re the smartest person in the world, you need to look in the mirror twice.