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College wouldn’t need to provide a good roi if it were much mess expensive. Just like, strictly speaking, going to a movie doesn’t provide a good roi. It’s one

College wouldn’t need to provide a good roi if it were much mess expensive. Just like, strictly speaking, going to a movie doesn’t provide a good roi. It’s one thing to take four years of your life deepening your thinking ability and stretching your mind without a good roi if you come out the other end without crushing debt and prospects for employment that can sustain you, even if those prospects have nothing to do with your college experience. This is what college was like until the last four decades or so. It’s entirely another to come out the other side in crippling debt and no prospects for any kind of sustaining job.

karamanolev 5y ago
If it provides the same value, but costs less, then by definition, the ROI is better. OTOH, if it puts you in crippling debt, but you have no prospects of a job to support that - the ROI becomes bad or even negative. So doesn't it capture all of that already? In some sense, twice the cost for twice the benefit might be worth it to those who can afford it, because the time-wise investment (4 years or so of your life) remain constant.
- compiler-guy 5y ago
  No, it doesn't capture all of that already. A "better" ROI doesn't necessarily mean a positive ROI. Getting negative 10% return on a $1,000 investment doesn't matter as much as getting a negative 10% return on a $100,000 investment.
  - westurner 5y ago
    Magnitude certainly is relevant to vector comparisons; but, if we define ROI as nominal rate of return, gross returns are not relevant to a comparison by that metric. Return on Investment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_(mathematics_and_physics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_(mathematics_and_physic... : > A Euclidean vector is thus an equivalence class of directed segments with the same magnitude (e.g., the length of the line segment (A, B)) and same direction (e.g., the direction from A to B).[3] In physics, Euclidean vectors are used to represent physical quantities that have both magnitude and direction, but are not located at a specific place, in contrast to scalars, which have no direction.[4] For example, velocity, forces and acceleration are represented by vectors Quantitatively and Qualitatively quantify the direct and external benefits of {college, other alternatives} with criteria in additional to real monetary ROI? From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_economics > Welfare economics also provides the theoretical foundations for particular instruments of public economics, including cost–benefit analysis,
    - westurner 5y ago
      From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18833730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18833730 : >> Why would people make an investment with insufficient ROI (Return on Investment)? > Insufficient information. > College Scorecard [1] is a database with a web interface for finding and comparing schools according to a number of objective criteria. CollegeScorecard launched in 2015. It lists "Average Annual Cost", "Graduation Rate", and "Salary After Attending" on the search results pages. When you review a detail page for an institution, there are many additional statistics; things like: "Typical Total Debt After Graduation" and "Typical Monthly Loan Payment". > The raw data behind CollegeScorecard can be downloaded from [2]. The "data_dictionary" tab of the "Data Dictionary" spreadsheet describes the data schema. > [1] https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/ https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/ > [2] https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/data/ https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/data/ > Khan Academy > "College, careers, and more" [3] may be a helpful supplement for funding a full-time college admissions counselor in a secondary education institution > [3] https://www.khanacademy.org/college-careers-more https://www.khanacademy.org/college-careers-more https://www.khanacademy.org/college-careers-more/college-admissions/explore-college-options https://www.khanacademy.org/college-careers-more/college-adm... : - [ ] Video & exercise / Jupyter notebook under Exploring college options for Return on Investment (according to e.g. CollegeScorecard data)
    - compiler-guy 5y ago
      Except that the grandparent post that you responded to was all about the magnitude of the loss rather than just ROI. If the magnitude of the loss is manageable, then the ROI becomes less important for life decisions. So sure! If all we are looking at is ROI then you are right! By definition! As long as you restrict your refutation ("by that metric") in a way that ignores the additional metric I had been trying to add to the conversation. I was trying to point out that there are other metrics that matter.
      - westurner 5y ago
        Direct or External Loss? Is the unique loss you identify not accounted for in the traditional ROI expression?

karamanolev 5y ago

If it provides the same value, but costs less, then by definition, the ROI is better. OTOH, if it puts you in crippling debt, but you have no prospects of a job to support that - the ROI becomes bad or even negative. So doesn't it capture all of that already? In some sense, twice the cost for twice the benefit might be worth it to those who can afford it, because the time-wise investment (4 years or so of your life) remain constant.

compiler-guy 5y ago
No, it doesn't capture all of that already. A "better" ROI doesn't necessarily mean a positive ROI. Getting negative 10% return on a $1,000 investment doesn't matter as much as getting a negative 10% return on a $100,000 investment.
- westurner 5y ago
  Magnitude certainly is relevant to vector comparisons; but, if we define ROI as nominal rate of return, gross returns are not relevant to a comparison by that metric. Return on Investment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_(mathematics_and_physics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_(mathematics_and_physic... : > A Euclidean vector is thus an equivalence class of directed segments with the same magnitude (e.g., the length of the line segment (A, B)) and same direction (e.g., the direction from A to B).[3] In physics, Euclidean vectors are used to represent physical quantities that have both magnitude and direction, but are not located at a specific place, in contrast to scalars, which have no direction.[4] For example, velocity, forces and acceleration are represented by vectors Quantitatively and Qualitatively quantify the direct and external benefits of {college, other alternatives} with criteria in additional to real monetary ROI? From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_economics > Welfare economics also provides the theoretical foundations for particular instruments of public economics, including cost–benefit analysis,
  - westurner 5y ago
    From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18833730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18833730 : >> Why would people make an investment with insufficient ROI (Return on Investment)? > Insufficient information. > College Scorecard [1] is a database with a web interface for finding and comparing schools according to a number of objective criteria. CollegeScorecard launched in 2015. It lists "Average Annual Cost", "Graduation Rate", and "Salary After Attending" on the search results pages. When you review a detail page for an institution, there are many additional statistics; things like: "Typical Total Debt After Graduation" and "Typical Monthly Loan Payment". > The raw data behind CollegeScorecard can be downloaded from [2]. The "data_dictionary" tab of the "Data Dictionary" spreadsheet describes the data schema. > [1] https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/ https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/ > [2] https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/data/ https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/data/ > Khan Academy > "College, careers, and more" [3] may be a helpful supplement for funding a full-time college admissions counselor in a secondary education institution > [3] https://www.khanacademy.org/college-careers-more https://www.khanacademy.org/college-careers-more https://www.khanacademy.org/college-careers-more/college-admissions/explore-college-options https://www.khanacademy.org/college-careers-more/college-adm... : - [ ] Video & exercise / Jupyter notebook under Exploring college options for Return on Investment (according to e.g. CollegeScorecard data)
  - compiler-guy 5y ago
    Except that the grandparent post that you responded to was all about the magnitude of the loss rather than just ROI. If the magnitude of the loss is manageable, then the ROI becomes less important for life decisions. So sure! If all we are looking at is ROI then you are right! By definition! As long as you restrict your refutation ("by that metric") in a way that ignores the additional metric I had been trying to add to the conversation. I was trying to point out that there are other metrics that matter.
    - westurner 5y ago
      Direct or External Loss? Is the unique loss you identify not accounted for in the traditional ROI expression?