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The difference between a nationalised industry and a publically-offered industry is that the nationalised industry has a chance of properly dealing with externa

The difference between a nationalised industry and a publically-offered industry is that the nationalised industry has a chance of properly dealing with externalities, treating workers properly, ensuring safe long-term functionality, and, y'know, prioritizing the service they're there to provide. This situation is covered by the first, though I bet the things that are killing the insects are hurting us, too.

oofabz 5y ago
>nationalised industry has a chance of properly dealing with externalities Do you know the history of the Soviet whaling program? They killed more whales for industry than the West.
- revolvingocelot 5y ago
  Yes, yes, the USSR was bad. If I allow you to define "nationalised industry" as "something bad the Soviets/CCP/Venezuelans did", then of course it's bad. Contrast that to the concept of a Crown corporation in Canada, which "provide services required by the public that otherwise would not be economically viable as a private enterprise or that do not fit exactly within the scope of any ministry." [0] They can do things like "care about externalities" because they're not expected to make money, but they're still structured as corporations and therefore can have the usual trappings like middle management and competitive salaries and casual Fridays. A famous example would be the Canadian National Railway, which was created by government fiat in 1918 as a response to a bunch of private railways in (less-developed) western Canada running out of government money to feed on and thereby going bankrupt. The diversity of the interests that it inherited allowed it to spin off all sorts of other beneficial Crown corporations recognized by every Canadian, like VIA Rail, Air Canada, and the CBC. Of course, the privatization of Crown corporations is also a great way for right-wing governments to create minor budgetary surpluses to enthrall the plebes while handing over a captive "customer"-base to their already-wealthy friends, and since the 80s it's become a proud tradition. [1] Air Canada, Ontario Hydro, Petro-Canada... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporations_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporations_of_Canada [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_Crown_corporations_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_Crown_corporat...
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > Contrast that to the concept of a Crown corporation in Canada Crown corporation in Canada isn't running any industries though, it is just an organization for providing government services and isn't any different than a typical department of education or post or government rails etc. I'm sure most agree with you that there are areas best served by government run organizations. Crown corporation just operates in such areas, so it wouldn't change peoples views on what services a government should run at all.
    - revolvingocelot 5y ago
      >Crown corporation in Canada isn't running any industries though, it is just an organization for providing government services and isn't any different than a typical department of education or post or government rails etc. An oil extraction and distribution company isn't an industry? I also suggest you read the second link in the grandparent: Nova Chemicals, Yara Belle Plaine, PotashCorp, all the resource extraction corps in Saskatchewan... Also, that's strictly wrong -- Crown corporations could operate in any sphere of business at all, so long as the government chose to endow them to do so. Furthermore, some Crown corporations must deal with real physical externalities arising as a consequence of their operations, like Petro-Canada, which (before it was sold off for a song to already-rich people) extracted real physical oil in Alberta, and dealt with the real physical externalities in a much MUCH *MUCH* more accountable way.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        > An oil extraction and distribution company isn't an industry? No, they aren't manufacturing anything. Managing natural resources is a reasonable thing for a government to do. > Crown corporations could operate in any sphere of business at all But they aren't which is the point. Just because they could do something in theory doesn't mean that they would do a good job if they did. There is no evidence that they would, so using them as an example doesn't work. > Furthermore, some Crown corporations must deal with real physical externalities arising as a consequence of their operations, like Petro-Canada There is no reason this couldn't just be done for private corporations via regulations. Politicians have that power today, why aren't they using it? And why do you think they would use it if ownership was different?
- mellavora 5y ago
  Do you know the early history of the US post office when it was considered a wonder of the world?

oofabz 5y ago

>nationalised industry has a chance of properly dealing with externalities Do you know the history of the Soviet whaling program? They killed more whales for industry than the West.

revolvingocelot 5y ago
Yes, yes, the USSR was bad. If I allow you to define "nationalised industry" as "something bad the Soviets/CCP/Venezuelans did", then of course it's bad. Contrast that to the concept of a Crown corporation in Canada, which "provide services required by the public that otherwise would not be economically viable as a private enterprise or that do not fit exactly within the scope of any ministry." [0] They can do things like "care about externalities" because they're not expected to make money, but they're still structured as corporations and therefore can have the usual trappings like middle management and competitive salaries and casual Fridays. A famous example would be the Canadian National Railway, which was created by government fiat in 1918 as a response to a bunch of private railways in (less-developed) western Canada running out of government money to feed on and thereby going bankrupt. The diversity of the interests that it inherited allowed it to spin off all sorts of other beneficial Crown corporations recognized by every Canadian, like VIA Rail, Air Canada, and the CBC. Of course, the privatization of Crown corporations is also a great way for right-wing governments to create minor budgetary surpluses to enthrall the plebes while handing over a captive "customer"-base to their already-wealthy friends, and since the 80s it's become a proud tradition. [1] Air Canada, Ontario Hydro, Petro-Canada... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporations_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_corporations_of_Canada [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_Crown_corporations_of_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Former_Crown_corporat...
- Jensson 5y ago
  > Contrast that to the concept of a Crown corporation in Canada Crown corporation in Canada isn't running any industries though, it is just an organization for providing government services and isn't any different than a typical department of education or post or government rails etc. I'm sure most agree with you that there are areas best served by government run organizations. Crown corporation just operates in such areas, so it wouldn't change peoples views on what services a government should run at all.
  - revolvingocelot 5y ago
    >Crown corporation in Canada isn't running any industries though, it is just an organization for providing government services and isn't any different than a typical department of education or post or government rails etc. An oil extraction and distribution company isn't an industry? I also suggest you read the second link in the grandparent: Nova Chemicals, Yara Belle Plaine, PotashCorp, all the resource extraction corps in Saskatchewan... Also, that's strictly wrong -- Crown corporations could operate in any sphere of business at all, so long as the government chose to endow them to do so. Furthermore, some Crown corporations must deal with real physical externalities arising as a consequence of their operations, like Petro-Canada, which (before it was sold off for a song to already-rich people) extracted real physical oil in Alberta, and dealt with the real physical externalities in a much MUCH *MUCH* more accountable way.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      > An oil extraction and distribution company isn't an industry? No, they aren't manufacturing anything. Managing natural resources is a reasonable thing for a government to do. > Crown corporations could operate in any sphere of business at all But they aren't which is the point. Just because they could do something in theory doesn't mean that they would do a good job if they did. There is no evidence that they would, so using them as an example doesn't work. > Furthermore, some Crown corporations must deal with real physical externalities arising as a consequence of their operations, like Petro-Canada There is no reason this couldn't just be done for private corporations via regulations. Politicians have that power today, why aren't they using it? And why do you think they would use it if ownership was different?
mellavora 5y ago
Do you know the early history of the US post office when it was considered a wonder of the world?