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Bitters pills are hard to swallow, indeed. These are all facts. Fundraiser for an MRI in the economic hub of Canada, Greater Toronto Area: https://hospitalnew

Bitters pills are hard to swallow, indeed. These are all facts. Fundraiser for an MRI in the economic hub of Canada, Greater Toronto Area: https://hospitalnews.com/second-mri-offers-flexibility-at-mackenzie-health/ https://hospitalnews.com/second-mri-offers-flexibility-at-ma... "In April 2012, the hospital leased a second temporary MRI, offering more flexibility." "Mackenzie Health Foundation has launched “Picture This,” a fundraising initiative for the second, permanent MRI. The campaign has reached $3.9M toward the $5M goal." This particular hospital is located in an affluent area with home valuations north of 1M, within GTA, the largest economic hub in Canada. Basically as far as you can imagine from a "rural area". Canada ranks second to last in high income countries: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-s-health-system-ranked-second-last-among-11-countries-report-1.5533045 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/canada-s-health-system-ranked-... Drug prices second-highest in the world: https://www.benefitscanada.com/news/bencan/canada-second-highest-spender-on-generic-drugs-among-oecd-countries-report/ https://www.benefitscanada.com/news/bencan/canada-second-hig... 200-300k Canadians seek healthcare in the US every year: "A policy brief — titled Flight of the Sick , by the Calgary-based think tank secondstreet.org — says 217,500 Canadians left the country for health care in 2017, according to Statistics Canada. If those travelling with the patients are included in the count, the total rises to 369,700 people." https://torontosun.com/news/national/canadians-continue-to-leave-the-country-for-health-care-says-new-report https://torontosun.com/news/national/canadians-continue-to-l... Price in Canada: "Out of Ontario's total budget for 2021, health-care spending comprises about 37.5 per cent. Spread among the province's 14,755,211 residents, it works out to approximately $4,730 per person." Ok, close to 40%, not 50%. My bad. 40% of provincial budget is healthcare. Add disability benefits and it's over 50%. so ~400 a month? https://www.toronto.com/news-story/10359211-budget-2021-ontario-s-health-care-spending-compared-to-other-provinces/ https://www.toronto.com/news-story/10359211-budget-2021-onta... Price in the US: "Obamacare promises you won't pay more than 9.78% of your income a year, or $4,647.46, for the second-lowest Silver plan." https://www.thebalance.com/how-much-will-obamacare-cost-me-3306054 https://www.thebalance.com/how-much-will-obamacare-cost-me-3... https://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-health-insurance-premiums/ https://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-health-insurance-premiu... Roughly just as expensive as the US. GoFundMe: https://www.gofundme.com/s?q=canada%20surgery https://www.gofundme.com/s?q=canada%20surgery 3440 results. Let's summarize: 1) drug prices almost as bad as the US 2) ranks second last in high income countries 3) needs donations for a permanent MRI, in a hospital that's right in the middle of a fairly affluent area in a large metro area. 4) 200k Canadians travel to get help outside the country every year. Apparently, no US citizens travel to Canada. 5) Costs roughly the same as the US, or maybe only slightly cheaper. 6) 3400 Canadians are raising money for healthcare, in a supposedly "universal healthcare" country. It's really quite an impressive stunt to combine high US prices with much longer wait times and worse outcomes. Congratulations Canada, someone must be making a killing.

mthoms 5y ago
> these are all facts Everything you wrote has a small nugget of truth wrapped in a bigger, totally misleading statement. It's a strategy that is typical of right-wing talking points. Regarding the MRI: Richmond Hill is literally the second richest neighbourhood in Canada. Getting a second (you left this part out, unsurprisingly) MRI machine via donations makes perfect sense. Rich people don't like to wait and the clout of donating to a hospital goes a long way. TL;DR: It's an extra machine so rich people get better treatment. >Canada ranks second to last in high income countries So we're calling something in the top 2% of the world "underdeveloped" now? Are we? Really? Or are we trolling? Be honest. >Price in Canada Your numbers are misleading (Ontario is a province, and healthcare is 40% of the province's budget). Aside: I thought you said "these are all facts"? They can't be if you're correcting yourself here can they? How do you open a post with "these are all facts" and then adjust your claim later in the exact same post? Are you serious? >Obamacare promises you won't pay more than 9.78% of your income Great! But, when did this become a Canada vs U.S. thing? Are you alleging that low income people have it better in the US? Citation please. (Note: Don't get me wrong, for cutting-edge treatments, and for rich people, America is best in the world for healthcare, hands down. No-one will argue with that.) >says 217,500 Canadians left the country for health care in 2017 Second Street is a right-wing, pro Oil and Gas (!), pro privatization, "think tank". And The Sun is akin to Fox News. But anyways, taken at face value, the phrase "for health care" is pretty broad term, no? Is it an experimental treatment and only offered in one place? Is it elective (not medically necessary)? Is it a rich person who can expedite their treatment by paying big bucks for it? Based on my experience (and the GoFundMe observations below), it's likely equal parts of the above. Speaking of which. The first page of your GoFundMe "evidence" has 18 entries. Here's what they are: The fund raising is not for the medical procedure but to help the family in other ways (lost income, etc): 4. Is for medication: 1. Is for overseas surgery because Canadian Doctors have deemed it too risky or experimental: 2. Is for overseas treatment on inoperable cancer with a "Doctor of Oriental Medicine": 2. Is transgender Facial Feminization surgery: 1. Are Americans, posting a Canadian version of their GoFundMe for Canadians to help out: 2. Is a fundraiser for a Dog: 1. Is a Canadian who underwent unexpected treatment in the US which they didn't have insurance for: 1. Is an American kid who needs Cleft Palate surgery (possibly in Canada): 1. Is surgery too specialized to be available in Canada: 1 (will be performed in Germany and covered by Canadian Insurance). Is a Canadian who opted for a more cutting edge version of a treatment already available in Canada overseas so is uncovered: 1. How embarrassing for you. Among people with a legitimate need, there are more Americans in your "proof" than Canadians. Please stop looking at headlines and investigate deeper to find the real truths. The real truth is often much more nuanced than your Fox News inspired, absolutist talking points. >Let's summarize Summarize your alternate "facts" all you want. I'll be over here enjoying an "underdeveloped" system that miraculously boasts some of the world's highest life expectancy [0]. And... I'll be doing that with the knowledge I'll never go bankrupt from health care costs[1]. [0] https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most... PS. Don't bother replying. I'm not interested in debating with someone so disingenuous as to claim "these are all facts" in the same breath as admitting they aren't. You don't seem well-intentioned and debating you doesn't interest me.

mthoms 5y ago

> these are all facts Everything you wrote has a small nugget of truth wrapped in a bigger, totally misleading statement. It's a strategy that is typical of right-wing talking points. Regarding the MRI: Richmond Hill is literally the second richest neighbourhood in Canada. Getting a second (you left this part out, unsurprisingly) MRI machine via donations makes perfect sense. Rich people don't like to wait and the clout of donating to a hospital goes a long way. TL;DR: It's an extra machine so rich people get better treatment. >Canada ranks second to last in high income countries So we're calling something in the top 2% of the world "underdeveloped" now? Are we? Really? Or are we trolling? Be honest. >Price in Canada Your numbers are misleading (Ontario is a province, and healthcare is 40% of the province's budget). Aside: I thought you said "these are all facts"? They can't be if you're correcting yourself here can they? How do you open a post with "these are all facts" and then adjust your claim later in the exact same post? Are you serious? >Obamacare promises you won't pay more than 9.78% of your income Great! But, when did this become a Canada vs U.S. thing? Are you alleging that low income people have it better in the US? Citation please. (Note: Don't get me wrong, for cutting-edge treatments, and for rich people, America is best in the world for healthcare, hands down. No-one will argue with that.) >says 217,500 Canadians left the country for health care in 2017 Second Street is a right-wing, pro Oil and Gas (!), pro privatization, "think tank". And The Sun is akin to Fox News. But anyways, taken at face value, the phrase "for health care" is pretty broad term, no? Is it an experimental treatment and only offered in one place? Is it elective (not medically necessary)? Is it a rich person who can expedite their treatment by paying big bucks for it? Based on my experience (and the GoFundMe observations below), it's likely equal parts of the above. Speaking of which. The first page of your GoFundMe "evidence" has 18 entries. Here's what they are: The fund raising is not for the medical procedure but to help the family in other ways (lost income, etc): 4. Is for medication: 1. Is for overseas surgery because Canadian Doctors have deemed it too risky or experimental: 2. Is for overseas treatment on inoperable cancer with a "Doctor of Oriental Medicine": 2. Is transgender Facial Feminization surgery: 1. Are Americans, posting a Canadian version of their GoFundMe for Canadians to help out: 2. Is a fundraiser for a Dog: 1. Is a Canadian who underwent unexpected treatment in the US which they didn't have insurance for: 1. Is an American kid who needs Cleft Palate surgery (possibly in Canada): 1. Is surgery too specialized to be available in Canada: 1 (will be performed in Germany and covered by Canadian Insurance). Is a Canadian who opted for a more cutting edge version of a treatment already available in Canada overseas so is uncovered: 1. How embarrassing for you. Among people with a legitimate need, there are more Americans in your "proof" than Canadians. Please stop looking at headlines and investigate deeper to find the real truths. The real truth is often much more nuanced than your Fox News inspired, absolutist talking points. >Let's summarize Summarize your alternate "facts" all you want. I'll be over here enjoying an "underdeveloped" system that miraculously boasts some of the world's highest life expectancy [0]. And... I'll be doing that with the knowledge I'll never go bankrupt from health care costs[1]. [0] https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most... PS. Don't bother replying. I'm not interested in debating with someone so disingenuous as to claim "these are all facts" in the same breath as admitting they aren't. You don't seem well-intentioned and debating you doesn't interest me.