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Heaven forbid someone should study something for any reason other than money. I'm pretty sure humanities majors realize they're not maximizing their expected sa

by lukasb 5y ago

Heaven forbid someone should study something for any reason other than money. I'm pretty sure humanities majors realize they're not maximizing their expected salary.

scroot 5y ago
This kind of ROI analysis -- along with rankings, management theory, and other woes that have befuddled the aims of a college education -- has really had an interesting effect. Fewer graduates of 4 year colleges are proficiently literate. Our entire education system is sacrificing its baseline purpose (to preserve and inculcate literacy) for really poor concepts like "job prospects."
- muffinman26 5y ago
  What do you mean by "proficiently literate"? The only definition I've ever seen of literacy is the ability to read/write, with no requirement that the writing be particularly eloquent. I don't know of any college that would accept illiterate students (with the possible exception of the truly blind, who might have accommodations to use audio for all tests). It would therefore be impossible for a graduate of a 4 year college to be illiterate.
fullshark 5y ago
I can't believe you find the concept of this even offensive, kids are taking out crippling loans to go to college in order to better their social standing and be self-sufficient adults by and large. Ignoring the ROI on college is a luxury that the vast majority of college students can't ignore.
hh3k0 5y ago
> Heaven forbid someone should study something for any reason other than money. Yeah, I was grossed out when I read this. Glad I wasn't alone.
- compiler-guy 5y ago
  The article expressly says that there are other benefits besides financial, for going to college and choosing a major, and that those reasons make sense and are valuable. But that students should make that choice with their eyes wide open. So this complaint is a bit of a straw man.
  - hh3k0 5y ago
    > The article expressly says that there are other benefits besides financial […] Yeah, one sentence or so in an entire article almost entirely about money. That's nothing but an alibi or some sort of decorative item, meant as distraction from the rest of the perversion.
- anoonmoose 5y ago
  people gotta eat
yboris 5y ago
It does seem possible to audit many college courses without paying. Perhaps that would be a cheaper avenue for someone pursuing the knowledge rather than the degree. After graduating I chose to audit 30 credits per semester for a year (for free, and while no longer being a student).
goda90 5y ago
We're stuck on the market value of a major with no regard for the less tangible benefits to society a discipline may bring. Teaching someone X makes them better at producing business widget Y. But we can't put a monetary value on teaching someone Z to make them a better neighbor, a better voter, healthier, less polluting, etc.
- zepto 5y ago
  College doesn’t do those things.
  - goda90 5y ago
    The people who teach those things in schools, or run programs to encourage them, or inspire them in art, etc tend to be those who pursue those majors with lower ROI. Study of history, philosophy, psychology, civics, and the like helps us pass on qualities that aren't needed to make business widgets.
    - zepto 5y ago
      Do they? Where is the evidence that people who study these things acquire qualities they didn’t already have?
      - mcguire 5y ago
        https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0516_higher_education.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0516_higher_educati... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259912440_On_the_non-monetary_benefits_of_tertiary_education/link/0c96052e835588c4c4000000/download https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259912440_On_the_no... * Health and life expectancy. * Family life and marriage. * Fertility and infant mortality. * Intergenerational effects. * Time allocation patterns. * Asset management. * Consumption behavior. * Social cohesion. * Adoption of new technologies. * Crime reduction.
        zepto 5y ago
ativzzz 5y ago
Unfortunately in the U.S, it's not really an option if you want to have a high quality of life unless you have rich parents. I've noticed that the majority of maintainers of a couple of high profile Linux distros are all European; the opportunity cost of doing so in the U.S. is just too high.
- paulpauper 5y ago
  Depends what part. some areas of Europe are very cheap, others very expensive.
- IdiocyInAction 5y ago
  Well, there is also the fact that there are fewer really good tech jobs in Europe that would hire those maintainers. (I am European).
bluGill 5y ago
I'm fine with that so long as you can afford your education. If your salary won't pay of the loans, then it is a bad investment and you shouldn't get a loan. That doesn't means you shouldn't study humanities, only that you shouldn't study until you have enough saving to afford it. Or you can take a couple courses in humanities (which you are required to anyway as generals) while majoring in something that will give you a good income. When you get a loan then financial concerns of is this a good investment should apply. If you don't have a loan - many people spend their money on all kinds off weird hobbies.
- Loughla 5y ago
  The issue I have with this, is there isn't a good solution currently. If you can afford it means that it's only for the wealthy, closing doors for people based on their parents income. That's not right. But it also shouldn't cost so damned much.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    I agree it costs too much, and as a result we aren't getting all the advantages of education. That is a different issue though.
didip 5y ago
If you look at how expensive education is in the US, as well as rapidly rising cost of living, this perspective is incredibly naive. Money cannot buy everything, but it can solves a lot of problems.
smnrchrds 5y ago
This is addressed in the article. It says: > Almost all students cite getting a better job as a primary reason for attending college. With a link to this study: https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/heri-freshman-survey-242619 https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/heri-freshman-survey-2426... Which says: > Students are increasingly placing a premium on the job-related benefits of going to college. The portion of incoming freshmen that cited "to be able to get a better job" as a very important reason for attending college reached an all-time high of 87.9 percent in 2012, an increase from 85.9 percent in 2011 and considerably higher than the low of 67.8 percent in 1976.
- Loughla 5y ago
  I feel like that's a chicken and egg issue, though. People who work in the humanities know they aren't going to make much, but they 100% will make more than if they try to get a job in the humanities without college. Most require a bachelor degree, at a minimum, regardless of salary. So what's the solution there?
  - munificent 5y ago
    > they 100% will make more than if they try to get a job in the humanities without college. This is true, but is only part of the equation. You also need to factor in: * The probability of them getting a humanities job. * The cost of college. If college is expensive and most humanities majors don't end up with humanities jobs, then your statement can be 100% but still a net loss for humanities majors in aggregate.
    - Loughla 5y ago
      That is a fair assessment, and I would really, really like to see accurate data around that question. Edit: As a side note - the first person to make a billion dollars from educational data will figure out how to gather accurate, unbiased data from all schools/colleges for accurate comparison data. Not even interpret the data, just gather it. Because right now, working in the belly of the higher ed beast for decades and decades, I can tell you that any data you see has been scrubbed and scrubbed and interpreted as to make it functionally useless to compare programs within institutions, let alone separate institutions.
notsureaboutpg 5y ago
The vast vast majority of Americans cannot afford their college educations and take out loans that they cannot discharge even in bankruptcy. It's a very very very risky situation for most 18 year olds precisely due to the cost. If the cost wasn't so high, we wouldn't care about ROI of college degrees.
dpierce9 5y ago
Colleges often market themselves/degrees as salary levers. Even if you aren’t trying to maximize your expected salary it is unexpected for programs to have negative ROIs. I also think the analysis is deliberately narrow in only discussing the financial aspects and not the many other benefits which are harder to measure. The headline is awful because it ignores these other things. I majored in humanities and consider my experience to have been remarkably valuable, but the fact that there were benefits along other dimensions doesn’t invalidate analysis of one dimension (one that is commonly held up in marketing materials).
koheripbal 5y ago
It's in the summary you didn't read... > Four in five engineering programs have ROI above $500,000, but the same is true for just 1% of psychology programs.
hajile 5y ago
If you enjoy it, buy the books/textbooks and save the rest of the money.
kevinventullo 5y ago
Or pure math majors for that matter!
AlexCoventry 5y ago
Given the financial burden it now poses, you'd have to be insane to attend college without picking a major which will help you to pay off your student loans. I don't know whether you know anyone with $80,000 in student loans and a $25,000/year income... It's not pretty.
nitwit005 5y ago
Imagine a much higher price. Would it still be worth it if the degree cost 10 million USD? How about 50 million? At some point anyone is going to acknowledge that the price isn't worth it. The ROI matters to absolutely everyone, without exception.
Ir0nMan 5y ago
You missed the point. The studying is not the problem anyone is talking about. People should study anything and everything they desire. The problem being addressed is spending a lot of money and taking out massive loans in order to study. If you want to study Art, by all means definitely study Art. Just do not borrow $100,000 to do it.
sershe 5y ago
If only humanities majors didn't later request that their loans be cancelled and constantly rant on Facebook/Discord/... about how the society is "unfair" because they are poor. It all ends up being about dollar ROI in the end...

by lukasb 5y ago

Heaven forbid someone should study something for any reason other than money. I'm pretty sure humanities majors realize they're not maximizing their expected salary.

scroot 5y ago

This kind of ROI analysis -- along with rankings, management theory, and other woes that have befuddled the aims of a college education -- has really had an interesting effect. Fewer graduates of 4 year colleges are proficiently literate. Our entire education system is sacrificing its baseline purpose (to preserve and inculcate literacy) for really poor concepts like "job prospects."

muffinman26 5y ago
What do you mean by "proficiently literate"? The only definition I've ever seen of literacy is the ability to read/write, with no requirement that the writing be particularly eloquent. I don't know of any college that would accept illiterate students (with the possible exception of the truly blind, who might have accommodations to use audio for all tests). It would therefore be impossible for a graduate of a 4 year college to be illiterate.

fullshark 5y ago

I can't believe you find the concept of this even offensive, kids are taking out crippling loans to go to college in order to better their social standing and be self-sufficient adults by and large. Ignoring the ROI on college is a luxury that the vast majority of college students can't ignore.

hh3k0 5y ago

> Heaven forbid someone should study something for any reason other than money. Yeah, I was grossed out when I read this. Glad I wasn't alone.

compiler-guy 5y ago
The article expressly says that there are other benefits besides financial, for going to college and choosing a major, and that those reasons make sense and are valuable. But that students should make that choice with their eyes wide open. So this complaint is a bit of a straw man.
- hh3k0 5y ago
  > The article expressly says that there are other benefits besides financial […] Yeah, one sentence or so in an entire article almost entirely about money. That's nothing but an alibi or some sort of decorative item, meant as distraction from the rest of the perversion.
anoonmoose 5y ago
people gotta eat

yboris 5y ago

It does seem possible to audit many college courses without paying. Perhaps that would be a cheaper avenue for someone pursuing the knowledge rather than the degree. After graduating I chose to audit 30 credits per semester for a year (for free, and while no longer being a student).

goda90 5y ago

We're stuck on the market value of a major with no regard for the less tangible benefits to society a discipline may bring. Teaching someone X makes them better at producing business widget Y. But we can't put a monetary value on teaching someone Z to make them a better neighbor, a better voter, healthier, less polluting, etc.

zepto 5y ago
College doesn’t do those things.
- goda90 5y ago
  The people who teach those things in schools, or run programs to encourage them, or inspire them in art, etc tend to be those who pursue those majors with lower ROI. Study of history, philosophy, psychology, civics, and the like helps us pass on qualities that aren't needed to make business widgets.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Do they? Where is the evidence that people who study these things acquire qualities they didn’t already have?
    - mcguire 5y ago
      https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0516_higher_education.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0516_higher_educati... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259912440_On_the_non-monetary_benefits_of_tertiary_education/link/0c96052e835588c4c4000000/download https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259912440_On_the_no... * Health and life expectancy. * Family life and marriage. * Fertility and infant mortality. * Intergenerational effects. * Time allocation patterns. * Asset management. * Consumption behavior. * Social cohesion. * Adoption of new technologies. * Crime reduction.
      - zepto 5y ago

ativzzz 5y ago

Unfortunately in the U.S, it's not really an option if you want to have a high quality of life unless you have rich parents. I've noticed that the majority of maintainers of a couple of high profile Linux distros are all European; the opportunity cost of doing so in the U.S. is just too high.

paulpauper 5y ago
Depends what part. some areas of Europe are very cheap, others very expensive.
IdiocyInAction 5y ago
Well, there is also the fact that there are fewer really good tech jobs in Europe that would hire those maintainers. (I am European).

bluGill 5y ago

I'm fine with that so long as you can afford your education. If your salary won't pay of the loans, then it is a bad investment and you shouldn't get a loan. That doesn't means you shouldn't study humanities, only that you shouldn't study until you have enough saving to afford it. Or you can take a couple courses in humanities (which you are required to anyway as generals) while majoring in something that will give you a good income. When you get a loan then financial concerns of is this a good investment should apply. If you don't have a loan - many people spend their money on all kinds off weird hobbies.

Loughla 5y ago
The issue I have with this, is there isn't a good solution currently. If you can afford it means that it's only for the wealthy, closing doors for people based on their parents income. That's not right. But it also shouldn't cost so damned much.
- bluGill 5y ago
  I agree it costs too much, and as a result we aren't getting all the advantages of education. That is a different issue though.

didip 5y ago

If you look at how expensive education is in the US, as well as rapidly rising cost of living, this perspective is incredibly naive. Money cannot buy everything, but it can solves a lot of problems.

smnrchrds 5y ago

This is addressed in the article. It says: > Almost all students cite getting a better job as a primary reason for attending college. With a link to this study: https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/heri-freshman-survey-242619 https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/heri-freshman-survey-2426... Which says: > Students are increasingly placing a premium on the job-related benefits of going to college. The portion of incoming freshmen that cited "to be able to get a better job" as a very important reason for attending college reached an all-time high of 87.9 percent in 2012, an increase from 85.9 percent in 2011 and considerably higher than the low of 67.8 percent in 1976.

Loughla 5y ago
I feel like that's a chicken and egg issue, though. People who work in the humanities know they aren't going to make much, but they 100% will make more than if they try to get a job in the humanities without college. Most require a bachelor degree, at a minimum, regardless of salary. So what's the solution there?
- munificent 5y ago
  > they 100% will make more than if they try to get a job in the humanities without college. This is true, but is only part of the equation. You also need to factor in: * The probability of them getting a humanities job. * The cost of college. If college is expensive and most humanities majors don't end up with humanities jobs, then your statement can be 100% but still a net loss for humanities majors in aggregate.
  - Loughla 5y ago
    That is a fair assessment, and I would really, really like to see accurate data around that question. Edit: As a side note - the first person to make a billion dollars from educational data will figure out how to gather accurate, unbiased data from all schools/colleges for accurate comparison data. Not even interpret the data, just gather it. Because right now, working in the belly of the higher ed beast for decades and decades, I can tell you that any data you see has been scrubbed and scrubbed and interpreted as to make it functionally useless to compare programs within institutions, let alone separate institutions.

notsureaboutpg 5y ago

The vast vast majority of Americans cannot afford their college educations and take out loans that they cannot discharge even in bankruptcy. It's a very very very risky situation for most 18 year olds precisely due to the cost. If the cost wasn't so high, we wouldn't care about ROI of college degrees.

dpierce9 5y ago

Colleges often market themselves/degrees as salary levers. Even if you aren’t trying to maximize your expected salary it is unexpected for programs to have negative ROIs. I also think the analysis is deliberately narrow in only discussing the financial aspects and not the many other benefits which are harder to measure. The headline is awful because it ignores these other things. I majored in humanities and consider my experience to have been remarkably valuable, but the fact that there were benefits along other dimensions doesn’t invalidate analysis of one dimension (one that is commonly held up in marketing materials).

koheripbal 5y ago

It's in the summary you didn't read... > Four in five engineering programs have ROI above $500,000, but the same is true for just 1% of psychology programs.

hajile 5y ago

If you enjoy it, buy the books/textbooks and save the rest of the money.

kevinventullo 5y ago

Or pure math majors for that matter!

AlexCoventry 5y ago

Given the financial burden it now poses, you'd have to be insane to attend college without picking a major which will help you to pay off your student loans. I don't know whether you know anyone with $80,000 in student loans and a $25,000/year income... It's not pretty.

nitwit005 5y ago

Imagine a much higher price. Would it still be worth it if the degree cost 10 million USD? How about 50 million? At some point anyone is going to acknowledge that the price isn't worth it. The ROI matters to absolutely everyone, without exception.

Ir0nMan 5y ago

You missed the point. The studying is not the problem anyone is talking about. People should study anything and everything they desire. The problem being addressed is spending a lot of money and taking out massive loans in order to study. If you want to study Art, by all means definitely study Art. Just do not borrow $100,000 to do it.

sershe 5y ago

If only humanities majors didn't later request that their loans be cancelled and constantly rant on Facebook/Discord/... about how the society is "unfair" because they are poor. It all ends up being about dollar ROI in the end...