4 ms·

The original title is > Hiker lost on US mountain ignored calls from rescuers because he didn’t recognise the number Why "he" has been changed to "they"? As

The original title is > Hiker lost on US mountain ignored calls from rescuers because he didn’t recognise the number Why "he" has been changed to "they"? As a non-native English speaker this made me confused when reading the title ("who didn't recognise the number? the rescuers? the hiker?). Edit: If gender neutrality is deemed important, a new pronoun should be introduced to avoid ambiguity.

wodenokoto 5y ago
“They” has been gender neutral singular for longer than you have been learning English. It’s use, however, seems to have been on a rise. This is no different than “you” also being both singular and plural.
- chinathrow 5y ago
  But OP is right that there is no need to change from he to they - why should it?
  - genewitch 5y ago
    Is the gender of the hiker important? They can be plural, and so, the hiker should have been referenced in reference to their phone, rather than how they ignored the calls.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      Is them being a hiker important? Is the fact that it was rescuers calling important? If we go this way too far, then the story could be summarized as "A person ignored calls from unknown numbers".
      - genewitch 5y ago
        "Alone" coming soon, starring lou diamond phillips, rated R
      - bawolff 5y ago
        This is silly. Certain parts of the headline are key to the story. Its the exact same story regardless of gender. Its a very different story if the person is not a hiker.
        TeMPOraL 5y ago
        It is, but I get to be silly when the submission title got editorialized without sufficient justification. HN guidelines ask to stay true to source title, with exception of clickbait and very uninformative titles.
        bawolff 5y ago
        I don't get it, you're intentionally making a straw man argument against yourself?
- cafard 5y ago
  In this case it slows down understanding of the headline. The plural noun "rescuers" is closer to the pronoun. It is only after one has tried that reading that one recalls that, oh, yes, much of the press wants to use "they" as 3rd person singular pronoun.
jlawson 5y ago
It is strange and you're right to be confused. This story refers to a known individual, so there's no reason to use 'they', which traditionally is only used for non-specific or unknown individuals (in addition to its standard usage as a second-person plural). It could be a simple error, but I suspect a slacktivist attempt to increase the novel usage of 'they' in reference to specific individuals.
- bawolff 5y ago
  I'm not really on board with this whole "use they everywhere" thing, but you'd have to be living under a rock to think the usage is novel at this point.
  - jlawson 5y ago
    I think you'd have to be very young to think it's not novel. Natural language changes on this scale are usually very slow; singular and specific 'they' has only been getting pushed for a couple years (basically since Obergefell in 2015). Note that this is separate from singular and nonspecific 'they' which is much older.
    - bawolff 5y ago
      I don't really think novel just means "recent" but also has a connotation of non-standard or an idea that hasn't really caught on yet.
      - jlawson 5y ago
        It is non-standard and hasn't really caught on outside of your bubble. Most English speakers are much further from the direct influence of gender activists.
        bawolff 5y ago
        I mean, the APA styleguide says to use it https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/si... AP styleguide also says its acceptable. I don't know that it gets more standard than that when it comes to english. That it has even caught the attention of style guide authors at all is enough to move it past the "novel" stage in my mind. I'm not claiming its universal (after all, english has a ton of variants) just not novel at this point. Compare to something like "xe", which i would call novel as its pretty far outside the mainstream.
bawolff 5y ago
> Edit: If gender neutrality is deemed important, a new pronoun should be introduced to avoid ambiguity. Its a little late for english grammar to make sense. Note that singular they dates back to the 1300s. It became less popular in the 1700s and now is making a come back.
hoseja 5y ago
>a new pronoun should be introduced to avoid ambiguity hahaha oh boy are you in for a treat.

wodenokoto 5y ago

“They” has been gender neutral singular for longer than you have been learning English. It’s use, however, seems to have been on a rise. This is no different than “you” also being both singular and plural.

chinathrow 5y ago
But OP is right that there is no need to change from he to they - why should it?
- genewitch 5y ago
  Is the gender of the hiker important? They can be plural, and so, the hiker should have been referenced in reference to their phone, rather than how they ignored the calls.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    Is them being a hiker important? Is the fact that it was rescuers calling important? If we go this way too far, then the story could be summarized as "A person ignored calls from unknown numbers".
    - genewitch 5y ago
      "Alone" coming soon, starring lou diamond phillips, rated R
    - bawolff 5y ago
      This is silly. Certain parts of the headline are key to the story. Its the exact same story regardless of gender. Its a very different story if the person is not a hiker.
      - TeMPOraL 5y ago
        It is, but I get to be silly when the submission title got editorialized without sufficient justification. HN guidelines ask to stay true to source title, with exception of clickbait and very uninformative titles.
        bawolff 5y ago
        I don't get it, you're intentionally making a straw man argument against yourself?
cafard 5y ago
In this case it slows down understanding of the headline. The plural noun "rescuers" is closer to the pronoun. It is only after one has tried that reading that one recalls that, oh, yes, much of the press wants to use "they" as 3rd person singular pronoun.

jlawson 5y ago

It is strange and you're right to be confused. This story refers to a known individual, so there's no reason to use 'they', which traditionally is only used for non-specific or unknown individuals (in addition to its standard usage as a second-person plural). It could be a simple error, but I suspect a slacktivist attempt to increase the novel usage of 'they' in reference to specific individuals.

bawolff 5y ago
I'm not really on board with this whole "use they everywhere" thing, but you'd have to be living under a rock to think the usage is novel at this point.
- jlawson 5y ago
  I think you'd have to be very young to think it's not novel. Natural language changes on this scale are usually very slow; singular and specific 'they' has only been getting pushed for a couple years (basically since Obergefell in 2015). Note that this is separate from singular and nonspecific 'they' which is much older.
  - bawolff 5y ago
    I don't really think novel just means "recent" but also has a connotation of non-standard or an idea that hasn't really caught on yet.
    - jlawson 5y ago
      It is non-standard and hasn't really caught on outside of your bubble. Most English speakers are much further from the direct influence of gender activists.
      - bawolff 5y ago
        I mean, the APA styleguide says to use it https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/si... AP styleguide also says its acceptable. I don't know that it gets more standard than that when it comes to english. That it has even caught the attention of style guide authors at all is enough to move it past the "novel" stage in my mind. I'm not claiming its universal (after all, english has a ton of variants) just not novel at this point. Compare to something like "xe", which i would call novel as its pretty far outside the mainstream.

bawolff 5y ago

> Edit: If gender neutrality is deemed important, a new pronoun should be introduced to avoid ambiguity. Its a little late for english grammar to make sense. Note that singular they dates back to the 1300s. It became less popular in the 1700s and now is making a come back.

hoseja 5y ago

>a new pronoun should be introduced to avoid ambiguity hahaha oh boy are you in for a treat.