9 ms·

> As they handcuffed him, his 9-year-old daughter cried in terror The police in America are well beyond the line of "citizen" police, you have the continental

> As they handcuffed him, his 9-year-old daughter cried in terror The police in America are well beyond the line of "citizen" police, you have the continental European model of two police forces, civil and military, and it's hard to see that there's much civil, it's more like ordinarily armed military force and a ready-for-war military force. It hasn't helped produce liberty or better enforcement in Europe, I can't see why Americans have allowed it to become their model. This discussion about no-knock warrants/raids[1] has a similar feel, an offence against common law, liberty, and above all, good sense. > I was in my boxer shorts when I heard my mother‐ in‐ law scream. It was a loud, fearful scream. I ran to the window, where I saw three or four men dressed in black with high‐ caliber rifles in my yard approaching my house. > I then heard an explosion, which was the sound of my door being blown open, followed by immediate gun fire. There were loud noises, the sounds of boots, and then more gunfire. > I hit the floor and began to yell, “I’m upstairs; please don’t shoot!” The men in black had me walk downstairs backwards, in my boxer shorts, with my hands in the air. I still can see two high‐ caliber rifles pointed at me. At the bottom of the stairs, they bound my hands, pulled me across the living room, and forced me to kneel on the floor in front of my broken door. I thought it was a home invasion. I was fearful that I was about to be executed. > I could see my mother‐ in‐ law bound, lying face down on the kitchen floor. Payton, my older dog, was lying dead in a pool of his own blood on the other side of the living room. I soon learned that my younger dog, Chase, was dead in a back room, where he had been shot from behind as he ran away. There were perhaps a dozen men in black, just standing around in my living room. I asked for a warrant. They said that they did not have it with them, but one was en route. > For most of the nearly four‐ hour ordeal, I was being interrogated, half‐ dressed in my living room and then in my kitchen. It was surreal. If it can happen to a mayor it can happen to anyone. [1] https://www.cato.org/policy-report/november/december-2008/should-no-knock-police-raids-be-rare-or-routine https://www.cato.org/policy-report/november/december-2008/sh... Edit: formatting

vultour 5y ago
Are you American? This assessment of European police is so wrong I can't fathom how you got it. I've never even seen an armored police vehicle.
- phoneperson 5y ago
  They are quite common here.
- brigandish 5y ago
  I'm British. Do you know what a gendarme is? Do you know how many countries have them? Did you know that the EU has a cross border gendarmerie? > I've never even seen an armored police vehicle. What would your personal experience have to do with the actual structure of policing in several European countries?
- C19is20 5y ago
  Carabineri.
trdtaylor1 5y ago
What the officers did in both the original and comment article I would deem criminal abuse of power. Thankfully I believe police in America are have become more keen as of late on the whole not acting like an outlaw gang; with the rise of police accountability, police being charged/convicted/sentenced, and departments paying massive sums for poorly trained wayward officers. The speed/level of abuse of force stories has dropped substantially in the past 6 months; I suspect it's not because the people becoming quieter. Should anyone here serve on a jury panel in America, do not forget you can vote not guilty if you believe the officers acted improperly or the punishment of trial/detention/seizure far outweighs the original non-crime. Jury nullification is a strong force of good which legally cannot be brought up in the courtroom itself, but is important for cases like these.
- sneak 5y ago
  > Thankfully I believe police in America are have become more keen as of late on the whole not acting like an outlaw gang; This isn't really true. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/25/nyregion/nypd-police-covid-vaccine-mandate-deblasio.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/25/nyregion/nypd-police-covi... https://abc7chicago.com/amp/chicago-police-covid-vaccine-mandate-illinois/11165373/ https://abc7chicago.com/amp/chicago-police-covid-vaccine-man... https://abc7news.com/amp/san-francisco-vaccine-mandate-sfpd-sf-city-workers/11124007/ https://abc7news.com/amp/san-francisco-vaccine-mandate-sfpd-...
__m 5y ago
This sounds more like the American model. In Germany for example the SEK was formed after SWAT, in response to a terror attack in Munich. Unless there is some serious crime, where guns are involved, the judge won’t send a special unit. Pictures of guns drawn on unarmed people seem to be mostly coming from the US.
- eru 5y ago
  In the UK, most police don't even carry guns normally.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    Same in Norway.
  - maccolgan 5y ago
    Now I understand why the UK has so many policing problems
    - iamben 5y ago
      Please explain this comment.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      No you don't.
    - mjbeswick 5y ago
      Exactly what policing problems!?
- rPlayer6554 5y ago
  I've physically seen many police walking around crowded areas with assault rifles in France and Italy. Germany not as much but they do carry pistols iirc.
  - amarant 5y ago
sofixa 5y ago
What are you talking about civil and military police in "continental Europe"? In most countries there's a military police which polices the military, a police which polices regular peope, sometimes a gendermerie which is sometimes nominally a part of the army under civilian control, and which is either for policing the countryside - France or for riot control/backup and special cases (e.g. a football match that requires lots of police) - most of Eastern Europe. In the latter case they're sometimes more hevily armed, but not even close to US police. And idepedently of those there are special heavy units for counterterrorism stuff and similar (akin to US SWAT), which can be a part of either entity - in France there's one at both and they work together. But they're deployed only in very specific and heavy cases. In any case, the problems with policing in Europe aren't even close to those in the US, and i don't think any of then can be attributed to hving two policing entities with different scopes.
- brigandish 5y ago
  > What are you talking about civil and military police in "continental Europe"? You just outlined it yourself, take away the military's own police and you have, in your words, 1. a police which polices regular peope and 2. sometimes a gendermerie which is sometimes nominally a part of the army You also go on to give several examples of this system being used in continental Europe. You could've added in Spain and Italy too. I'm really not sure why you asked the question if you're going to answer it yourself. If you're looking for a non-continental police force which does not follow that system then you only need compare with the UK or Ireland. > In any case, the problems with policing in Europe aren't even close to those in the US, and i don't think any of then can be attributed to hving two policing entities with different scopes. So you say. From[1]: > Covell was among the 87 protesters wounded when police baton-charged the Diaz school in Genoa, beating people as they cowered in their sleeping bags and planting petrol bombs to justify the raid. > Once arrested, protesters, including five Britons, were taken to a police barracks where they were beaten again, sprayed with asphyxiating gas, threatened with rape and forced to sing fascist-era songs. > Despite the handing out of verdicts including convictions for grievous bodily harm and falsifying evidence in two major trials, Italy's tardy justice system has ensured final appeals are yet to be heard and most sentences have been timed out by the statute of limitations. "No one has ever been arrested or gone to jail," said Massimo Pastore, a lawyer who has represented Covell and other activists. That's not even the half of it. Do you think this is an isolated incident? Can you divorce this from militarised policing? Perhaps you'll disagree and then answer the questions again, that would be helpful. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/12/night-police-beat-g8-protesters https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/12/night-police-b...
kichimi 5y ago
I think you've been seriously mislead about European police. Your description is of the heavily armed US police and not like any police force you'll hear about in Europe. The actual military police only police servicemen and have no authority over civilians, you will only find them in army towns.
- brigandish 5y ago
  I'm British, hence I'm European. The UK does not have a paramilitary police force, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal… all have paramilitary police forces. Apparently, there are more that I was unaware of. How were you misled into not knowing that all these major powers have gendarmerie?
rPlayer6554 5y ago
https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/05/arrests-after-raids-at-eu-farms-and-vineyards-over-labour-exploitation https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/05/arrests-after-raids-at-e... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-raid-homes-businesses-across-germany-italy-bulgaria-mafia-probe-2021-10-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-raid-homes-busin... https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/5/20/the-child-victims-of-the-uks-encrochat-house-raids https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/5/20/the-child-victi... You're missing the issue. The big problem in the story is that the Government still sees people responsibly disclosing vulnerabilities as threats.
- brigandish 5y ago
  I think it’s two pronged. As you rightly point out, a (lack of) free speech, which leads to this warping of “criminal” responsibility; and the fact that police are using disproportionate amounts of force, fuelled in part by the growth of their paramilitary wing.
DarkByte8 5y ago
In Romania most police raids happen at 5 AM, knock on a door a few times if no one answer, the door is breached and everyone is ordered to get on the ground, if it is a child there it is removed by a police officer, taken outside and calmed. The police enter with pistols drawn, no rifles because flats and houses in Romania are small and is hard to maneuver with the rifle. This is done to most criminals regardless of crime. The reason is that when you raid someone they can get scared and do stupid things like try to attack the officer, try to escape, use a knife, etc. so you need to overwhelm the subject with force and end the encounter as soon as possible. I am not saying that they are shooting the subject , they didn't shoot anyone in 10 years from what I know, they are deterring him from trying to do anything stupid. If 2 skinny cops knock on the door the subject might attack the cops or try to run, if 7 big, armed officers enter the room while the criminal is half asleep then he is not trying anything and he is captured in a safe manner for everyone.
dustymcp 5y ago
There is only a civil police here im disgusted when i see videos of how American officers behave they have never learned about disarming with anything but violence absolutely disgusting, here they need atleast 7 years of education, college 3 years then Police academy 2 years then 2 years in trainig this includes fitness and mental tests, in America it seems like they just get a bunch of gear and then off to the Streets. They are one of the reasons why i would never visit america just seems downright dangerous.. sorry for my rant.
jacquesm 5y ago
Police in Europe is quite different from country to country, between the French, German, Spanish and say Dutch police the difference is huge. But nothing that I'm familiar with comes close to describing the police force that you apparently have as a model for the EU. Even the former SovBloc states, where the police traditionally have more problems than in the Western part of the EU in terms of corruption and having to deal with overt violence are not covered by your description. I've lived on the US border for quite a few years and even the difference between the Canadian police and the US police was night and day. Would you mind explaining which country in the EU you believe has this model that you describe?
- brigandish 5y ago
  Spain[1]: > The Guardia Civil (Civil Guard) is a gendarmerie force and therefore, has a military status > The Policía Nacional or Cuerpo Nacional de Policía (the National Police Corps, or CNP) has a civilian status Italy[2]: > The two main police forces in the country are the Carabinieri, the national gendarmerie, and the Polizia di Stato, the civil national police. France[3]: > There are two national police forces called "Police nationale" and "Gendarmerie nationale". Need I go on? There are more, as the other comments show. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Spain [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Italy [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_France
mjbeswick 5y ago
You clearly have no understanding of how the police work in European countries!
- brigandish 5y ago
  If you don't know that there are paramilitary police forces in Europe then you may apprise yourself of the information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paramilitary_organizations#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paramilitary_organizat...
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    Just linking to Wikipedia doesn't help your argument. For The Netherlands, this includes two: KMar (who also secure airport like Schiphol) and DSI. It does not include for example regional AT (arrestatieteam, the equiv of a SWAT team). Every time a Dutch police officer uses their gun on the field (so exercise is excluded), there's an internal investigation, by default. If that'd happen in USA, you'd have a huge dept. of internal affairs, lol.
    - brigandish 5y ago
      France, Spain, Portugal, Italy - do they have a paramilitary police force that roams the streets or not?
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
There is no model of a dual police in Europe that would have a tengible difference. You have military police which is for the military. You have police or polices for the civils. There may be one or two, they work the same and have the same prerogatives and way of working. The difference is in the colour of the uniform and some ego battles in the top management.

vultour 5y ago

Are you American? This assessment of European police is so wrong I can't fathom how you got it. I've never even seen an armored police vehicle.

phoneperson 5y ago
They are quite common here.
brigandish 5y ago
I'm British. Do you know what a gendarme is? Do you know how many countries have them? Did you know that the EU has a cross border gendarmerie? > I've never even seen an armored police vehicle. What would your personal experience have to do with the actual structure of policing in several European countries?
C19is20 5y ago
Carabineri.

trdtaylor1 5y ago

What the officers did in both the original and comment article I would deem criminal abuse of power. Thankfully I believe police in America are have become more keen as of late on the whole not acting like an outlaw gang; with the rise of police accountability, police being charged/convicted/sentenced, and departments paying massive sums for poorly trained wayward officers. The speed/level of abuse of force stories has dropped substantially in the past 6 months; I suspect it's not because the people becoming quieter. Should anyone here serve on a jury panel in America, do not forget you can vote not guilty if you believe the officers acted improperly or the punishment of trial/detention/seizure far outweighs the original non-crime. Jury nullification is a strong force of good which legally cannot be brought up in the courtroom itself, but is important for cases like these.

sneak 5y ago
> Thankfully I believe police in America are have become more keen as of late on the whole not acting like an outlaw gang; This isn't really true. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/25/nyregion/nypd-police-covid-vaccine-mandate-deblasio.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/25/nyregion/nypd-police-covi... https://abc7chicago.com/amp/chicago-police-covid-vaccine-mandate-illinois/11165373/ https://abc7chicago.com/amp/chicago-police-covid-vaccine-man... https://abc7news.com/amp/san-francisco-vaccine-mandate-sfpd-sf-city-workers/11124007/ https://abc7news.com/amp/san-francisco-vaccine-mandate-sfpd-...

__m 5y ago

This sounds more like the American model. In Germany for example the SEK was formed after SWAT, in response to a terror attack in Munich. Unless there is some serious crime, where guns are involved, the judge won’t send a special unit. Pictures of guns drawn on unarmed people seem to be mostly coming from the US.

eru 5y ago
In the UK, most police don't even carry guns normally.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  Same in Norway.
- maccolgan 5y ago
  Now I understand why the UK has so many policing problems
  - iamben 5y ago
    Please explain this comment.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    No you don't.
  - mjbeswick 5y ago
    Exactly what policing problems!?
rPlayer6554 5y ago
I've physically seen many police walking around crowded areas with assault rifles in France and Italy. Germany not as much but they do carry pistols iirc.
- amarant 5y ago

sofixa 5y ago

What are you talking about civil and military police in "continental Europe"? In most countries there's a military police which polices the military, a police which polices regular peope, sometimes a gendermerie which is sometimes nominally a part of the army under civilian control, and which is either for policing the countryside - France or for riot control/backup and special cases (e.g. a football match that requires lots of police) - most of Eastern Europe. In the latter case they're sometimes more hevily armed, but not even close to US police. And idepedently of those there are special heavy units for counterterrorism stuff and similar (akin to US SWAT), which can be a part of either entity - in France there's one at both and they work together. But they're deployed only in very specific and heavy cases. In any case, the problems with policing in Europe aren't even close to those in the US, and i don't think any of then can be attributed to hving two policing entities with different scopes.

brigandish 5y ago
> What are you talking about civil and military police in "continental Europe"? You just outlined it yourself, take away the military's own police and you have, in your words, 1. a police which polices regular peope and 2. sometimes a gendermerie which is sometimes nominally a part of the army You also go on to give several examples of this system being used in continental Europe. You could've added in Spain and Italy too. I'm really not sure why you asked the question if you're going to answer it yourself. If you're looking for a non-continental police force which does not follow that system then you only need compare with the UK or Ireland. > In any case, the problems with policing in Europe aren't even close to those in the US, and i don't think any of then can be attributed to hving two policing entities with different scopes. So you say. From[1]: > Covell was among the 87 protesters wounded when police baton-charged the Diaz school in Genoa, beating people as they cowered in their sleeping bags and planting petrol bombs to justify the raid. > Once arrested, protesters, including five Britons, were taken to a police barracks where they were beaten again, sprayed with asphyxiating gas, threatened with rape and forced to sing fascist-era songs. > Despite the handing out of verdicts including convictions for grievous bodily harm and falsifying evidence in two major trials, Italy's tardy justice system has ensured final appeals are yet to be heard and most sentences have been timed out by the statute of limitations. "No one has ever been arrested or gone to jail," said Massimo Pastore, a lawyer who has represented Covell and other activists. That's not even the half of it. Do you think this is an isolated incident? Can you divorce this from militarised policing? Perhaps you'll disagree and then answer the questions again, that would be helpful. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/12/night-police-beat-g8-protesters https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/12/night-police-b...

kichimi 5y ago

I think you've been seriously mislead about European police. Your description is of the heavily armed US police and not like any police force you'll hear about in Europe. The actual military police only police servicemen and have no authority over civilians, you will only find them in army towns.

brigandish 5y ago
I'm British, hence I'm European. The UK does not have a paramilitary police force, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal… all have paramilitary police forces. Apparently, there are more that I was unaware of. How were you misled into not knowing that all these major powers have gendarmerie?

rPlayer6554 5y ago

https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/05/arrests-after-raids-at-eu-farms-and-vineyards-over-labour-exploitation https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/05/arrests-after-raids-at-e... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-raid-homes-businesses-across-germany-italy-bulgaria-mafia-probe-2021-10-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/police-raid-homes-busin... https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/5/20/the-child-victims-of-the-uks-encrochat-house-raids https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2021/5/20/the-child-victi... You're missing the issue. The big problem in the story is that the Government still sees people responsibly disclosing vulnerabilities as threats.

brigandish 5y ago
I think it’s two pronged. As you rightly point out, a (lack of) free speech, which leads to this warping of “criminal” responsibility; and the fact that police are using disproportionate amounts of force, fuelled in part by the growth of their paramilitary wing.

DarkByte8 5y ago

In Romania most police raids happen at 5 AM, knock on a door a few times if no one answer, the door is breached and everyone is ordered to get on the ground, if it is a child there it is removed by a police officer, taken outside and calmed. The police enter with pistols drawn, no rifles because flats and houses in Romania are small and is hard to maneuver with the rifle. This is done to most criminals regardless of crime. The reason is that when you raid someone they can get scared and do stupid things like try to attack the officer, try to escape, use a knife, etc. so you need to overwhelm the subject with force and end the encounter as soon as possible. I am not saying that they are shooting the subject , they didn't shoot anyone in 10 years from what I know, they are deterring him from trying to do anything stupid. If 2 skinny cops knock on the door the subject might attack the cops or try to run, if 7 big, armed officers enter the room while the criminal is half asleep then he is not trying anything and he is captured in a safe manner for everyone.

dustymcp 5y ago

There is only a civil police here im disgusted when i see videos of how American officers behave they have never learned about disarming with anything but violence absolutely disgusting, here they need atleast 7 years of education, college 3 years then Police academy 2 years then 2 years in trainig this includes fitness and mental tests, in America it seems like they just get a bunch of gear and then off to the Streets. They are one of the reasons why i would never visit america just seems downright dangerous.. sorry for my rant.

jacquesm 5y ago

Police in Europe is quite different from country to country, between the French, German, Spanish and say Dutch police the difference is huge. But nothing that I'm familiar with comes close to describing the police force that you apparently have as a model for the EU. Even the former SovBloc states, where the police traditionally have more problems than in the Western part of the EU in terms of corruption and having to deal with overt violence are not covered by your description. I've lived on the US border for quite a few years and even the difference between the Canadian police and the US police was night and day. Would you mind explaining which country in the EU you believe has this model that you describe?

brigandish 5y ago
Spain[1]: > The Guardia Civil (Civil Guard) is a gendarmerie force and therefore, has a military status > The Policía Nacional or Cuerpo Nacional de Policía (the National Police Corps, or CNP) has a civilian status Italy[2]: > The two main police forces in the country are the Carabinieri, the national gendarmerie, and the Polizia di Stato, the civil national police. France[3]: > There are two national police forces called "Police nationale" and "Gendarmerie nationale". Need I go on? There are more, as the other comments show. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Spain [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Italy [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_France

mjbeswick 5y ago

You clearly have no understanding of how the police work in European countries!

brigandish 5y ago
If you don't know that there are paramilitary police forces in Europe then you may apprise yourself of the information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paramilitary_organizations#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_paramilitary_organizat...
- Fnoord 5y ago
  Just linking to Wikipedia doesn't help your argument. For The Netherlands, this includes two: KMar (who also secure airport like Schiphol) and DSI. It does not include for example regional AT (arrestatieteam, the equiv of a SWAT team). Every time a Dutch police officer uses their gun on the field (so exercise is excluded), there's an internal investigation, by default. If that'd happen in USA, you'd have a huge dept. of internal affairs, lol.
  - brigandish 5y ago
    France, Spain, Portugal, Italy - do they have a paramilitary police force that roams the streets or not?

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

There is no model of a dual police in Europe that would have a tengible difference. You have military police which is for the military. You have police or polices for the civils. There may be one or two, they work the same and have the same prerogatives and way of working. The difference is in the colour of the uniform and some ego battles in the top management.