3 ms·

While I do understand where you're coming from I don't see it as an impossible problem to automate. An automated system can instantly set the collective to the

by LamboJ 5y ago

While I do understand where you're coming from I don't see it as an impossible problem to automate. An automated system can instantly set the collective to the perfect rpm for autorotation, and can do it much quicker (and better) than a human. Especially on something like an R22 or R44 with very low rotor inertia. In a smaller aircraft, you're relying a lot more on your forward momentum (i.e. forward airspeed) to cushion your landing, whereas in a larger helicopter the rotor inertia has enough energy such that you can place it straight down on pretty much any flat surface the system can find. Garmin already has something called Smart Glide for fixed wing aircraft where it calculates engine out trajectories, and so I don't see this as something impossible with a helicopter. Especially coupled with a wire strike cut (basically just a sharp knife sticking out of the front of the helicopter that just cuts any cables you run into). I'd think given the use cases for some helicopter flights (e.g. sightseeing tours) where you're typically in VFR weather there's certainly an opportunity to have automated flights. I agree we're not there yet, but I don't see it as impossible in the near future. (I mainly fly fixed-wing, but I have about 50 hours in an R22)

treetoppin 5y ago
Your comment about automating autorotations got me interested, and it appears that one UAV company has done a tech demo for it, at least from my cursory search. From what I can tell though the design space would be extraordinarily difficult to fully automate. Management of rotor RPM requires finesse, functioning flight controls and also quick decision making about where and how you are going to land. Usually the automatic flight control system would require either enough battery power to power your servo actuators after an engine failure or a system designed to run in AC power which is generated by your rotor system (which of course means it’s depleting rotor RPM at a time when rotor RPM is what is most important to manage). I think you’d have to design a lot of the aircraft systems with automation in mind, so it really would have to be a new aircraft in many regards, and you’d be unlikely to be able to retrofit an older airframe to do it. I think there’s just too many trade offs to make the system worthwhile in the low margin business of crop spraying, tour rides, or electronic news gathering. Medevac, oil rig transportation or military applications could make use of an automatic autorotation system, but those aircraft also tend to be medium to heavy twin engine aircraft which negates a lot of the need to focus as much on autos when you are designing the overall system.
ghoward 5y ago
I am aware of wire cutters on helicopters, and yes, wire strike prevention with cutters would be useful, but that only solves one problem. You are correct that a lot can be automated, but if there is anything that cannot be, humans have to be in the cockpit. And if humans have to be in the cockpit, then we actually don't want as much automation as possible. [1] See also [2]. The biggest problem I see with automating helicopter flight is that the hardest part of an autorotation is picking a spot to land. I don't think that can be automated. You would either have to have super high resolution radar pointed at the ground or high resolution computer vision that can identify flat spots which are as varied as the human race. I don't think either is feasible anytime soon. And that's without even considering the higher power draw they would require, as a sibling comment mentions. Then you have to consider what happens in the case of full power outage, including no battery. In that case, you have effectively doomed the people onboard if there is not a real pilot. [1]: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/airline-pilots-depend-too-much-automation-says-panel-commissioned-faa-flna2D11625301 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/airline-pilots-depend-t... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28995841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28995841

by LamboJ 5y ago

treetoppin 5y ago

Your comment about automating autorotations got me interested, and it appears that one UAV company has done a tech demo for it, at least from my cursory search. From what I can tell though the design space would be extraordinarily difficult to fully automate. Management of rotor RPM requires finesse, functioning flight controls and also quick decision making about where and how you are going to land. Usually the automatic flight control system would require either enough battery power to power your servo actuators after an engine failure or a system designed to run in AC power which is generated by your rotor system (which of course means it’s depleting rotor RPM at a time when rotor RPM is what is most important to manage). I think you’d have to design a lot of the aircraft systems with automation in mind, so it really would have to be a new aircraft in many regards, and you’d be unlikely to be able to retrofit an older airframe to do it. I think there’s just too many trade offs to make the system worthwhile in the low margin business of crop spraying, tour rides, or electronic news gathering. Medevac, oil rig transportation or military applications could make use of an automatic autorotation system, but those aircraft also tend to be medium to heavy twin engine aircraft which negates a lot of the need to focus as much on autos when you are designing the overall system.

ghoward 5y ago

I am aware of wire cutters on helicopters, and yes, wire strike prevention with cutters would be useful, but that only solves one problem. You are correct that a lot can be automated, but if there is anything that cannot be, humans have to be in the cockpit. And if humans have to be in the cockpit, then we actually don't want as much automation as possible. [1] See also [2]. The biggest problem I see with automating helicopter flight is that the hardest part of an autorotation is picking a spot to land. I don't think that can be automated. You would either have to have super high resolution radar pointed at the ground or high resolution computer vision that can identify flat spots which are as varied as the human race. I don't think either is feasible anytime soon. And that's without even considering the higher power draw they would require, as a sibling comment mentions. Then you have to consider what happens in the case of full power outage, including no battery. In that case, you have effectively doomed the people onboard if there is not a real pilot. [1]: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/airline-pilots-depend-too-much-automation-says-panel-commissioned-faa-flna2D11625301 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/airline-pilots-depend-t... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28995841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28995841