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“ The effect on new users would be profound as well: as all the current users naturally age out of wanting to use hard drugs, the majority of drug dealers (othe

“ The effect on new users would be profound as well: as all the current users naturally age out of wanting to use hard drugs, the majority of drug dealers (other users themselves), won't have the capability to introduce new people to hard drugs” Why do you believe this to be true?

wespiser_2018 5y ago
Pareto law effects on the consumption of drugs, and network effects that result from the fact that the majority of street level dealers are doing it for the sole purpose of supporting their habit? No life ruining class A felony is worth the money you get selling drugs, but people do it it all the time because they are sick with a disease and feel they must. New people will still be introduced to drugs, but there are definitely network effects in opiate addiction that can be mitigated when supply is transferred from an illegal source that requires people to organize and recruit new users with cash, to one that is organized and paid for by the government. It's not perfect, but even decriminalization has had a pretty remarkable effect on Portugal, at least that's what the latest studies are saying.
yholio 5y ago
Giving free, safe drugs will depress demand for illegal drugs: most dealers are users, and are pushed to a high risk criminal activity - drug dealing - in order to finance their expensive habit. They take extraordinary risk for this, including actively seeking out new clients. If you give out free product, you not only kill the primary demand, but most dealers themselves don't have a reason to continue taking risks - because they can benefit from the free product too. Purely profit oriented dealers will remain in the market, which is now much smaller and even riskier, since they can only sell to recreational users.
- rkk3 5y ago
  > most dealers are users, and are pushed to a high risk criminal activity - drug dealing - in order to finance their expensive habit Source?
  - quickthrowman 5y ago
    The smaller the transaction amount, the larger chance that the dealer is going to have an addiction of their own. It’s easier for one wholesaler to sell to an addict (or several) that distributes small amounts to a bunch of other addicts, vs taking on all the volume yourself. Addicts usually know other addicts and have a strong incentive to sell, they need cash every single day. I doubt you’ll find a source, but the number of users distributing small amounts is probably larger than the amount of people pushing weight (who usually don’t use) This is based of my experience buying heroin in a mid-sized US metro area, fortunately far in my past. One without an open-air drug market, so deals were done in cars or alleys.
- gonehome 5y ago
  I also have a hypothesis that if it's freely available and boring then more people are likely to quit. The focus required to get it I think is part of what keeps people addicted - the reward is uncertain. If addicts can go to a boring clinic and get it daily for free maybe they'll at some point look up and wonder why they're doing what they're doing. Especially if the clinic has easily available assistance and things that can help people quit. Even in the worst case where they remain addicts, at least they won't OD and they're not funding organized crime. Probably not as easy with meth though - it's one thing to be addicted and still responsive to incentives, psychosis is a harder problem to handle.
- vintermann 5y ago
  I'm not sure that market is so much smaller. The "recreational" market includes anyone who couldn't afford to publicly admit their use, including for instance single parents who use amphetamines to try to have energy to do necessary things after a full day's work at the meatpacking plant.
haskellandchill 5y ago
It's just how it works. There are diminishing returns to the common drugs of abuse. If given access to high quality drugs of abuse without negative economic and social consequences the body will adapt, use will plateau, and for the majority eventually phase out. A minority will choice to maintain. There are negative health consequences to long term maintenance but it's not like the reality of obtaining poor quaility street drugs in dangerous situtations. It's data driven and based on medical theory so it's not much of a belief. See Swiss and UK medical heroin programs for evidence.
- asdff 5y ago
  Introducing friction to your ability to satiate your vice is the first step in battling addiction.
  - haskellandchill 5y ago
    Actually variability of reward is part of what makes dealing with addiction to street drugs more challenging.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    That doesn't agree with anything I've learned about battling addiction. Do you have any research or studies that support that? Or other programs with a good track record? Because, unless you are using the term "friction" to be so all-encompassing as to be meaningless, this sounds like a recipe for a lot of failed attempts to fight addiction.
    - asdff 5y ago
      Every addiction treatment effort is to introduce friction, like dumping out your booze in your home into the toilet, getting a new job that doesn't tolerate smoke breaks, or finding new friends that aren't going to peer pressure you into using. If the vice is easy to act upon, you will continue to act upon it indefinitely.

wespiser_2018 5y ago

Pareto law effects on the consumption of drugs, and network effects that result from the fact that the majority of street level dealers are doing it for the sole purpose of supporting their habit? No life ruining class A felony is worth the money you get selling drugs, but people do it it all the time because they are sick with a disease and feel they must. New people will still be introduced to drugs, but there are definitely network effects in opiate addiction that can be mitigated when supply is transferred from an illegal source that requires people to organize and recruit new users with cash, to one that is organized and paid for by the government. It's not perfect, but even decriminalization has had a pretty remarkable effect on Portugal, at least that's what the latest studies are saying.

yholio 5y ago

Giving free, safe drugs will depress demand for illegal drugs: most dealers are users, and are pushed to a high risk criminal activity - drug dealing - in order to finance their expensive habit. They take extraordinary risk for this, including actively seeking out new clients. If you give out free product, you not only kill the primary demand, but most dealers themselves don't have a reason to continue taking risks - because they can benefit from the free product too. Purely profit oriented dealers will remain in the market, which is now much smaller and even riskier, since they can only sell to recreational users.

rkk3 5y ago
> most dealers are users, and are pushed to a high risk criminal activity - drug dealing - in order to finance their expensive habit Source?
- quickthrowman 5y ago
  The smaller the transaction amount, the larger chance that the dealer is going to have an addiction of their own. It’s easier for one wholesaler to sell to an addict (or several) that distributes small amounts to a bunch of other addicts, vs taking on all the volume yourself. Addicts usually know other addicts and have a strong incentive to sell, they need cash every single day. I doubt you’ll find a source, but the number of users distributing small amounts is probably larger than the amount of people pushing weight (who usually don’t use) This is based of my experience buying heroin in a mid-sized US metro area, fortunately far in my past. One without an open-air drug market, so deals were done in cars or alleys.
gonehome 5y ago
I also have a hypothesis that if it's freely available and boring then more people are likely to quit. The focus required to get it I think is part of what keeps people addicted - the reward is uncertain. If addicts can go to a boring clinic and get it daily for free maybe they'll at some point look up and wonder why they're doing what they're doing. Especially if the clinic has easily available assistance and things that can help people quit. Even in the worst case where they remain addicts, at least they won't OD and they're not funding organized crime. Probably not as easy with meth though - it's one thing to be addicted and still responsive to incentives, psychosis is a harder problem to handle.
vintermann 5y ago
I'm not sure that market is so much smaller. The "recreational" market includes anyone who couldn't afford to publicly admit their use, including for instance single parents who use amphetamines to try to have energy to do necessary things after a full day's work at the meatpacking plant.

haskellandchill 5y ago

It's just how it works. There are diminishing returns to the common drugs of abuse. If given access to high quality drugs of abuse without negative economic and social consequences the body will adapt, use will plateau, and for the majority eventually phase out. A minority will choice to maintain. There are negative health consequences to long term maintenance but it's not like the reality of obtaining poor quaility street drugs in dangerous situtations. It's data driven and based on medical theory so it's not much of a belief. See Swiss and UK medical heroin programs for evidence.

asdff 5y ago
Introducing friction to your ability to satiate your vice is the first step in battling addiction.
- haskellandchill 5y ago
  Actually variability of reward is part of what makes dealing with addiction to street drugs more challenging.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  That doesn't agree with anything I've learned about battling addiction. Do you have any research or studies that support that? Or other programs with a good track record? Because, unless you are using the term "friction" to be so all-encompassing as to be meaningless, this sounds like a recipe for a lot of failed attempts to fight addiction.
  - asdff 5y ago
    Every addiction treatment effort is to introduce friction, like dumping out your booze in your home into the toilet, getting a new job that doesn't tolerate smoke breaks, or finding new friends that aren't going to peer pressure you into using. If the vice is easy to act upon, you will continue to act upon it indefinitely.