8 ms·

Look at it this way, if a car is involved in a drive-by shooting the police can't get a warrant to search every single home that has the same year/make/model of

Look at it this way, if a car is involved in a drive-by shooting the police can't get a warrant to search every single home that has the same year/make/model of car registered to with that address. For a legal warrant you have to have probable cause that a specific person committed a crime. You can't just search everybody and see what sticks, that's blatantly unconstitutional.

6510 5y ago
If the car was used multiple shootings, the same phone was in that area and the phone was used to search for the victims name every time then we have everything we need but are unwilling to use it? We can probably figure out how to extract such data and cross reference it without making any of it available to random government employees. Say you take pictures of license plates, store the data some place safe and allow a query of 5 recent armed robbery locations. If the result contains multiple cars matching 2 locations no results are returned. The moment a 6th robbery happens and a single car matches 3 out of 5 law enforcement can start looking for it immediately. Sure, you'd get pretty mad if every time you get robbed the police searches your vehicle but they don't need to break anything and you will get over it.
- Talanes 5y ago
  >Sure, you'd get pretty mad if every time you get robbed the police searches your vehicle but they don't need to break anything and you will get over it. Or I'll stop calling the police, especially if that first invasive experience doesn't end with my belongings returned.
  - 6510 5y ago
    Right, that seems a whole different problem that should really be addressed. In the Netherlands the police are the politest people one could ever meet. It takes very few complaints about politeness or excess force to lose the job. Ofc on the flip side they are also highly incompetent, have no tools, get to see just about ever crook released, are under paid and are very unprofessional. But polite, woah!
    - vimacs2 5y ago
      Cute attempt at establishing a completely made up dichotomy but generally the politeness of a police force is correlated with how effective it is, not inversely.
      - AlbertCory 5y ago
        There's a pretty broad statement. Evidence?
      - elzbardico 5y ago
        Of course. In places with low crime levels, the police can afford not being completely stressed to the point they become psychos.
      - 6510 5y ago
        The work involves more than talking with people. They do get the full effect out of being polite but their effectiveness is hurt by a long list of things. For example, we can always spend more money on it. People will always find a way to spend more money. I would scale the budget with how long it takes to do basic things. If those take much to long they either need funding or have to prioritize tasks. Things like interview the witness before GC kicks in. There are crappy security cameras everywhere but the free plan doesn't store the recordings for very long. etc There are countless stupid stories.
        Talanes 5y ago
        Talking with people is kind of most of the job though.
  - NullPrefix 5y ago
    >Or I'll stop calling the police, especially if that first invasive experience doesn't end with my belongings returned. Oh my sweet summer child. Calling the police is never about getting the belongings back. Calling the police is only about striking the perpetrator with violence, hoping that it would equalize the karma levels.
    - Zababa 5y ago
      > Calling the police is only about striking the perpetrator with violence, hoping that it would equalize the karma levels. Or, you know, prevent them from doing crimes again.
      - mulmen 5y ago
        Rehabilitation is clearly not a high priority in the US Justice system. See: outcomes. It's a vengeance based system.
        elzbardico 5y ago
        inmates have found that is pretty hard to commit the same crimes that put them in jail while they are behind the bars. It should count for anything.
        mulmen 5y ago
        Until they get out, have no life skills and no prospects because they have been excluded from society then re-offend and the cycle continues.
        ineedasername 5y ago
        vengeance Unfortunately. But the criminal still can't commit crimes while in prison though. Vengeance just also means that solving the problem of any individual criminal is usually only temporary.
        5y ago
  - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
    Well, generally you need to file a police report to file an insurance claim, so whether or not they do you any good (or even harm), you don't have a lot of alternatives (unless you don't have insurance, in which case you also don't have a lot of alternatives, likely).
    - Talanes 5y ago
      I've never been wealthy enough to insure my belongings, so my experience with trying to make police reports for theft have not only felt like a waste of time, the officers I've filled with have directly told me I'm wasting my time (and implied I'm wasting theirs) whenever I have made a report.
      - vel0city 5y ago
        In the US, it is common to carry renter's insurance. It covers liability you as a renter might have for damages to the landlord's property such as water, fire, or other kinds of damage. It also usually covers your belongings as well. That coverage usually applies to your belongings regardless of where they are and covers things like theft. Bike get stolen from a bike rack? Backpack get stolen from a car? Usually covered, with deductibles, of course. A lot of people I know who carry renter's insurance were unaware it covered their stuff like that. YMMV on what is and is not covered though.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  I'm not sure that putting the data into a metaphorical locked-box is sufficient. Someone with an interest in seeing the data will always have the keys. What you describe is not completely different from the purpose that FISA courts are supposed to serve, and I don't think those are a great success in protecting freedom and privacy according to the Constitution.
zamfi 5y ago
> For a legal warrant you have to have probable cause that a specific person committed a crime. You can't just search everybody and see what sticks, that's blatantly unconstitutional. Sure, though it’s worth noting that nothing prohibits the police from walking down the street and asking people. Those people don’t have to talk to the police, but… Google will fight warrants like this. AT&T doesn’t. Other companies have varying policies on this. Obviously, one can’t assume data is not available to law enforcement merely because the police would need a warrant to get it over a possessor’s objections.
- passivate 5y ago
  >Google will fight warrants like this. How many keyword-search warrants have they fought? The article seems to suggest google has been providing data to the us government in the past and that this is an on-going collaboration.
- 77pt77 5y ago
  >Google will fight warrants like this. They are already complying. It's right there in the article.
  - AlbertCory 5y ago
    My bad. You're right.
    - addingnumbers 5y ago
      Genuine question, what led you to believe Google would fight this sort of thing?
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  I think something everyone should be aware of as well: there is no legal requirement that Google not hand over this data to police. A warrant is needed to force Google to hand over such data, but they don't need anything at all to ask Google nicely. And if Google decides it's in their best interest to comply without a warrant, they are the legal owner of the data, so ...
jonas21 5y ago
On the other hand, if a specific type of nail is used as shrapnel in a homemade bomb, investigators can go around to all hardware stores in the area and get security camera footage of customers who recently bought large quantities of that type of nail. This isn't a hypothetical situation - according to the LA Times, it's how they ended up cracking the Austin bombing case that involved the Google warrant [1]: > Trying to find the buyer of the nails, officials “went to every hardware store” in the area to find customers who had made large purchases, and they struck gold with a Home Depot store in the Austin suburb of Round Rock, McCaul said in an interview with the Los Angeles Times. > “The fatal mistake that led law enforcement to him — because he was pretty good at evading surveillance cameras — was when he walked into Home Depot,” McCaul said. Investigators obtained surveillance video of Conditt walking into the store in a wig and walking back out to a vehicle with a license plate connected to his name. So I think there's a little more nuance here. Certainly matching a list of generic terms seems too broad. But a warrant for specific keywords that was limited to a specific city and time frame might be analogous to going to all the hardware stores in the city and pulling security footage? [1] https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-austin-bombings-suspect-20180321-story.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-austin-bombings-suspect...
- jacquesm 5y ago
  A while ago there was someone here on HN that thought that he could evade the authorities for a longer stretch of time if he decided to do so. This works right up to the point where there is a serious reason to find you and then you are as good as without a chance. For the same reason that computer security is hard: you need to make it work every time, and they only need the one break. It's just a matter of resources at that point.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  The police can ask for anything. It's not the same thing as ordering something.
  - jonas21 5y ago
    That's a good point. The reason they had to get a warrant for Google is that Google refuses to hand over data unless they're compelled to do so (and I'm glad they're willing to take this stand). It's unclear whether there were any warrants for the hardware stores of if the stores simply gave up the data when asked.
AlbertCory 5y ago
There's actually a doormat you can order, which I saw hanging on the wall in Google Legal (I'm not saying that was an official statement by anyone): Come back with a warrant I'd get one, but I'm afraid someone would steal it.
tshaddox 5y ago
Presumably this isn’t some easily-drawn line though, wouldn’t it be a judgment call (literally, made by a judge)? If the car was a specific color and model only 2 of which were registered in the state, would the judge issue a warrant for those 2 addresses?
xxpor 5y ago
I'd guess the analogy the government would make is that it's more similar to a DUI checkpoint. They're searching everyone (or a random subset) of everyone coming through an area.
Consultant32452 5y ago
I can imagine a scenario where the warrant is for searches that you would not believe a human would naturally make on their own. I think SCOTUS would allow that. Scenario: Hello fellow criminals. Instead of point to point communication, we will make random posts/pages that have our combination of words on them. So if you want to read our communication, do a google search for the exact quote "purple antelope shoe couch can squirrel."
- ineedasername 5y ago
  naturally make Though some of those bomb searches could easily be made by anyone curious about past bombing incidents. I've certainly had some curiousity-based searches about how the Unibomber did his work. How do we end up defining naturally? That's a question the court would ask, and want to be able to provide a litmus test for going forward. I'm not sure how we do that here... Statistical probability at some specific threshold? It's a difficult question.
  - Consultant32452 5y ago
    Yes, once the very unique search phrase becomes public and lots of random people are searching it, I suspect the court would be less likely to allow such a warrant.
    - mikecoles 5y ago
      This HN page is #4 at the moment. It hasn't tripped Google Trends yet though.
  - sterlind 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure I've searched those terms myself, looking up how high and low explosives are used as detonation lenses in atomic bombs. I also looked up whether PLA can be made conductive and if it shows up normally in x-rays, to determine if I could legally 3D print the lower receiver for a handgun in my state. ...come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if I tripped some queries, and they just realized I'm an insatiably curious but harmless nerd and left me be.
csense 5y ago
A few years ago, in the context of justifying automatic license plate readers, the LAPD told a court that all cars in Los Angeles are under investigation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7434448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7434448

6510 5y ago

If the car was used multiple shootings, the same phone was in that area and the phone was used to search for the victims name every time then we have everything we need but are unwilling to use it? We can probably figure out how to extract such data and cross reference it without making any of it available to random government employees. Say you take pictures of license plates, store the data some place safe and allow a query of 5 recent armed robbery locations. If the result contains multiple cars matching 2 locations no results are returned. The moment a 6th robbery happens and a single car matches 3 out of 5 law enforcement can start looking for it immediately. Sure, you'd get pretty mad if every time you get robbed the police searches your vehicle but they don't need to break anything and you will get over it.

Talanes 5y ago
>Sure, you'd get pretty mad if every time you get robbed the police searches your vehicle but they don't need to break anything and you will get over it. Or I'll stop calling the police, especially if that first invasive experience doesn't end with my belongings returned.
- 6510 5y ago
  Right, that seems a whole different problem that should really be addressed. In the Netherlands the police are the politest people one could ever meet. It takes very few complaints about politeness or excess force to lose the job. Ofc on the flip side they are also highly incompetent, have no tools, get to see just about ever crook released, are under paid and are very unprofessional. But polite, woah!
  - vimacs2 5y ago
    Cute attempt at establishing a completely made up dichotomy but generally the politeness of a police force is correlated with how effective it is, not inversely.
    - AlbertCory 5y ago
      There's a pretty broad statement. Evidence?
    - elzbardico 5y ago
      Of course. In places with low crime levels, the police can afford not being completely stressed to the point they become psychos.
    - 6510 5y ago
      The work involves more than talking with people. They do get the full effect out of being polite but their effectiveness is hurt by a long list of things. For example, we can always spend more money on it. People will always find a way to spend more money. I would scale the budget with how long it takes to do basic things. If those take much to long they either need funding or have to prioritize tasks. Things like interview the witness before GC kicks in. There are crappy security cameras everywhere but the free plan doesn't store the recordings for very long. etc There are countless stupid stories.
      - Talanes 5y ago
        Talking with people is kind of most of the job though.
- NullPrefix 5y ago
  >Or I'll stop calling the police, especially if that first invasive experience doesn't end with my belongings returned. Oh my sweet summer child. Calling the police is never about getting the belongings back. Calling the police is only about striking the perpetrator with violence, hoping that it would equalize the karma levels.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    > Calling the police is only about striking the perpetrator with violence, hoping that it would equalize the karma levels. Or, you know, prevent them from doing crimes again.
    - mulmen 5y ago
      Rehabilitation is clearly not a high priority in the US Justice system. See: outcomes. It's a vengeance based system.
      - elzbardico 5y ago
        inmates have found that is pretty hard to commit the same crimes that put them in jail while they are behind the bars. It should count for anything.
        mulmen 5y ago
        Until they get out, have no life skills and no prospects because they have been excluded from society then re-offend and the cycle continues.
      - ineedasername 5y ago
        vengeance Unfortunately. But the criminal still can't commit crimes while in prison though. Vengeance just also means that solving the problem of any individual criminal is usually only temporary.
        5y ago
- blacksmith_tb 5y ago
  Well, generally you need to file a police report to file an insurance claim, so whether or not they do you any good (or even harm), you don't have a lot of alternatives (unless you don't have insurance, in which case you also don't have a lot of alternatives, likely).
  - Talanes 5y ago
    I've never been wealthy enough to insure my belongings, so my experience with trying to make police reports for theft have not only felt like a waste of time, the officers I've filled with have directly told me I'm wasting my time (and implied I'm wasting theirs) whenever I have made a report.
    - vel0city 5y ago
      In the US, it is common to carry renter's insurance. It covers liability you as a renter might have for damages to the landlord's property such as water, fire, or other kinds of damage. It also usually covers your belongings as well. That coverage usually applies to your belongings regardless of where they are and covers things like theft. Bike get stolen from a bike rack? Backpack get stolen from a car? Usually covered, with deductibles, of course. A lot of people I know who carry renter's insurance were unaware it covered their stuff like that. YMMV on what is and is not covered though.
ineedasername 5y ago
I'm not sure that putting the data into a metaphorical locked-box is sufficient. Someone with an interest in seeing the data will always have the keys. What you describe is not completely different from the purpose that FISA courts are supposed to serve, and I don't think those are a great success in protecting freedom and privacy according to the Constitution.

zamfi 5y ago

> For a legal warrant you have to have probable cause that a specific person committed a crime. You can't just search everybody and see what sticks, that's blatantly unconstitutional. Sure, though it’s worth noting that nothing prohibits the police from walking down the street and asking people. Those people don’t have to talk to the police, but… Google will fight warrants like this. AT&T doesn’t. Other companies have varying policies on this. Obviously, one can’t assume data is not available to law enforcement merely because the police would need a warrant to get it over a possessor’s objections.

passivate 5y ago
>Google will fight warrants like this. How many keyword-search warrants have they fought? The article seems to suggest google has been providing data to the us government in the past and that this is an on-going collaboration.
77pt77 5y ago
>Google will fight warrants like this. They are already complying. It's right there in the article.
- AlbertCory 5y ago
  My bad. You're right.
  - addingnumbers 5y ago
    Genuine question, what led you to believe Google would fight this sort of thing?
BobbyJo 5y ago
I think something everyone should be aware of as well: there is no legal requirement that Google not hand over this data to police. A warrant is needed to force Google to hand over such data, but they don't need anything at all to ask Google nicely. And if Google decides it's in their best interest to comply without a warrant, they are the legal owner of the data, so ...

jonas21 5y ago

On the other hand, if a specific type of nail is used as shrapnel in a homemade bomb, investigators can go around to all hardware stores in the area and get security camera footage of customers who recently bought large quantities of that type of nail. This isn't a hypothetical situation - according to the LA Times, it's how they ended up cracking the Austin bombing case that involved the Google warrant [1]: > Trying to find the buyer of the nails, officials “went to every hardware store” in the area to find customers who had made large purchases, and they struck gold with a Home Depot store in the Austin suburb of Round Rock, McCaul said in an interview with the Los Angeles Times. > “The fatal mistake that led law enforcement to him — because he was pretty good at evading surveillance cameras — was when he walked into Home Depot,” McCaul said. Investigators obtained surveillance video of Conditt walking into the store in a wig and walking back out to a vehicle with a license plate connected to his name. So I think there's a little more nuance here. Certainly matching a list of generic terms seems too broad. But a warrant for specific keywords that was limited to a specific city and time frame might be analogous to going to all the hardware stores in the city and pulling security footage? [1] https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-austin-bombings-suspect-20180321-story.html https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-austin-bombings-suspect...

jacquesm 5y ago
A while ago there was someone here on HN that thought that he could evade the authorities for a longer stretch of time if he decided to do so. This works right up to the point where there is a serious reason to find you and then you are as good as without a chance. For the same reason that computer security is hard: you need to make it work every time, and they only need the one break. It's just a matter of resources at that point.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
The police can ask for anything. It's not the same thing as ordering something.
- jonas21 5y ago
  That's a good point. The reason they had to get a warrant for Google is that Google refuses to hand over data unless they're compelled to do so (and I'm glad they're willing to take this stand). It's unclear whether there were any warrants for the hardware stores of if the stores simply gave up the data when asked.

AlbertCory 5y ago

There's actually a doormat you can order, which I saw hanging on the wall in Google Legal (I'm not saying that was an official statement by anyone): Come back with a warrant I'd get one, but I'm afraid someone would steal it.

tshaddox 5y ago

Presumably this isn’t some easily-drawn line though, wouldn’t it be a judgment call (literally, made by a judge)? If the car was a specific color and model only 2 of which were registered in the state, would the judge issue a warrant for those 2 addresses?

xxpor 5y ago

I'd guess the analogy the government would make is that it's more similar to a DUI checkpoint. They're searching everyone (or a random subset) of everyone coming through an area.

Consultant32452 5y ago

I can imagine a scenario where the warrant is for searches that you would not believe a human would naturally make on their own. I think SCOTUS would allow that. Scenario: Hello fellow criminals. Instead of point to point communication, we will make random posts/pages that have our combination of words on them. So if you want to read our communication, do a google search for the exact quote "purple antelope shoe couch can squirrel."

ineedasername 5y ago
naturally make Though some of those bomb searches could easily be made by anyone curious about past bombing incidents. I've certainly had some curiousity-based searches about how the Unibomber did his work. How do we end up defining naturally? That's a question the court would ask, and want to be able to provide a litmus test for going forward. I'm not sure how we do that here... Statistical probability at some specific threshold? It's a difficult question.
- Consultant32452 5y ago
  Yes, once the very unique search phrase becomes public and lots of random people are searching it, I suspect the court would be less likely to allow such a warrant.
  - mikecoles 5y ago
    This HN page is #4 at the moment. It hasn't tripped Google Trends yet though.
- sterlind 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure I've searched those terms myself, looking up how high and low explosives are used as detonation lenses in atomic bombs. I also looked up whether PLA can be made conductive and if it shows up normally in x-rays, to determine if I could legally 3D print the lower receiver for a handgun in my state. ...come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if I tripped some queries, and they just realized I'm an insatiably curious but harmless nerd and left me be.

csense 5y ago

A few years ago, in the context of justifying automatic license plate readers, the LAPD told a court that all cars in Los Angeles are under investigation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7434448 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7434448