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Can't people choose to refuse medical help? The only reason I see expenses really causing massive debt is if you choose to accept/request medical procedures yo

Can't people choose to refuse medical help? The only reason I see expenses really causing massive debt is if you choose to accept/request medical procedures you can't pay for. While it's morbid to consider the idea of just letting yourself die because you don't want to go into debt, it still is a choice... isn't it?

leetcrew 5y ago
not always. you obviously don't get to choose if you're unconscious and someone calls an ambulance for you. or if you get a concussion or injure yourself while intoxicated, you might not be able to fully consent to being taken to the hospital. even DNRs are not always respected.
- lazide 5y ago
  A friend of mine has terminal cancer and is in a place like this - DNR’s pasted everywhere as the worst fear he has is he’ll get rescucitated and be even worse off.
dnautics 5y ago
In a whole lot of cases dying is, whether we like it or not "I/we/We[0] don't want to pay for it anymore". I have the experience of pulling the plug on my dad, not for financial reasons, but because it was very clear that he was going to die anyways and it wasn't worth the emotional energy to keep him around (luckily for us, everyone important had time to say their goodbyes and several annoying people had said their goodbyes too [1]). But it also brought into focus to me that we COULD have spent/forced the system to spend millions of dollars in extraordinary resources to keep him alive. Medical technology is quite advanced these days. Advanced != free. And there's a thing where the longer you try to prolong someone's life the more progressively expensive it becomes, not just from a "price of care" perspective but an "[externalized] cost of care" perspective. Is it worth X carbon dioxide emissions to keep a person on a "level-III dialysis machine"? Is it worth X acres of rainforest to extract an anticancer drug to keep someone's cancer at bay? Anyways the political divide, in the US, between the left's clueless utopianism and the right's underhanded support of market-distorting profitmongers, has become so farcical that it's impossible to question if humans should have "a general right to have their life extended" even if there are actual, difficult questions to go around. [0] capital We, as in "the state" [1] if you ever have the experience of being by the bedside of someone who is dying (n=2 for me), you will see people who come to visit, and have so much pathos, I suspect largely due to their own hangups about death. To be at your best in your role, you will want to shoo them away as quickly as possible.
homo_ergaster 5y ago
> The only reason I see expenses really causing massive debt is if you choose to accept/request medical procedures you can't pay for Have you ever been to a US hospital? They don’t have a menu where you browse treatments and prices. You get your treatment and then later on you get a massive bill That’s all putting aside the fact that a society allowing people to suffer from treatable illnesses is completely unnecessary and cruel considering that providing free care to everyone is something many countries do successfully
- exporectomy 5y ago
  That's false. America has probably the most advanced healthcare in the world. Almost every new treatment is invented and made available there. Other countries don't provide that cutting edge stuff for free, they simply don't provide it at all. I live in New Zealand which has free healthcare but we sometimes hear about people pressuring the government to pay for some expensive new drug, or a dying person using crowdfunding to pay for what the government won't, or complaining they have to spend their own money flying to America for private treatment because no doctor in New Zealand is capable of that special thing. But those are the exceptions that get into the news. Mostly people just die when it's too expensive. Our standard for "treatable illnesses" is lower than the reality of what technology can do. At the extreme end of diminishing returns, I'd guess that most deaths of elderly people in hospital are preventable because machines to perform the function of failed heart, lungs, kidneys, GI tract, etc. exist. But it's expensive, and countries with socialized healthcare don't pay for it for everyone because they don't have infinite money. My dad died this way when his lungs filled with fluid while in hospital.
  - homo_ergaster 5y ago
    >That's false What part of my comment are you referring to? I can’t really tell from what you wrote
    - exporectomy 5y ago
      Excuse me. It was this "a society allowing people to suffer from treatable illnesses is completely unnecessary and cruel considering that providing free care to everyone is something many countries do successfully" I'm saying no country provides free healthcare for all treatable illnesses. And not providing it is necessary because the cost would be too great. I agree it's cruel though.
aseipp 5y ago
> While it's morbid to consider the idea of just letting yourself die because you don't want to go into debt, it still is a choice... isn't it? No. I'm glad I could clear up this very difficult topic for you.
- RobertRoberts 5y ago
  Are you saying medical help is _always_ forced on you? I understand if you are unconscious, you can't decide, or in a coma. But what if you are lucid and asked by a doctor if you want a procedure or not?

leetcrew 5y ago

not always. you obviously don't get to choose if you're unconscious and someone calls an ambulance for you. or if you get a concussion or injure yourself while intoxicated, you might not be able to fully consent to being taken to the hospital. even DNRs are not always respected.

lazide 5y ago
A friend of mine has terminal cancer and is in a place like this - DNR’s pasted everywhere as the worst fear he has is he’ll get rescucitated and be even worse off.

dnautics 5y ago

In a whole lot of cases dying is, whether we like it or not "I/we/We[0] don't want to pay for it anymore". I have the experience of pulling the plug on my dad, not for financial reasons, but because it was very clear that he was going to die anyways and it wasn't worth the emotional energy to keep him around (luckily for us, everyone important had time to say their goodbyes and several annoying people had said their goodbyes too [1]). But it also brought into focus to me that we COULD have spent/forced the system to spend millions of dollars in extraordinary resources to keep him alive. Medical technology is quite advanced these days. Advanced != free. And there's a thing where the longer you try to prolong someone's life the more progressively expensive it becomes, not just from a "price of care" perspective but an "[externalized] cost of care" perspective. Is it worth X carbon dioxide emissions to keep a person on a "level-III dialysis machine"? Is it worth X acres of rainforest to extract an anticancer drug to keep someone's cancer at bay? Anyways the political divide, in the US, between the left's clueless utopianism and the right's underhanded support of market-distorting profitmongers, has become so farcical that it's impossible to question if humans should have "a general right to have their life extended" even if there are actual, difficult questions to go around. [0] capital We, as in "the state" [1] if you ever have the experience of being by the bedside of someone who is dying (n=2 for me), you will see people who come to visit, and have so much pathos, I suspect largely due to their own hangups about death. To be at your best in your role, you will want to shoo them away as quickly as possible.

homo_ergaster 5y ago

> The only reason I see expenses really causing massive debt is if you choose to accept/request medical procedures you can't pay for Have you ever been to a US hospital? They don’t have a menu where you browse treatments and prices. You get your treatment and then later on you get a massive bill That’s all putting aside the fact that a society allowing people to suffer from treatable illnesses is completely unnecessary and cruel considering that providing free care to everyone is something many countries do successfully

exporectomy 5y ago
That's false. America has probably the most advanced healthcare in the world. Almost every new treatment is invented and made available there. Other countries don't provide that cutting edge stuff for free, they simply don't provide it at all. I live in New Zealand which has free healthcare but we sometimes hear about people pressuring the government to pay for some expensive new drug, or a dying person using crowdfunding to pay for what the government won't, or complaining they have to spend their own money flying to America for private treatment because no doctor in New Zealand is capable of that special thing. But those are the exceptions that get into the news. Mostly people just die when it's too expensive. Our standard for "treatable illnesses" is lower than the reality of what technology can do. At the extreme end of diminishing returns, I'd guess that most deaths of elderly people in hospital are preventable because machines to perform the function of failed heart, lungs, kidneys, GI tract, etc. exist. But it's expensive, and countries with socialized healthcare don't pay for it for everyone because they don't have infinite money. My dad died this way when his lungs filled with fluid while in hospital.
- homo_ergaster 5y ago
  >That's false What part of my comment are you referring to? I can’t really tell from what you wrote
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    Excuse me. It was this "a society allowing people to suffer from treatable illnesses is completely unnecessary and cruel considering that providing free care to everyone is something many countries do successfully" I'm saying no country provides free healthcare for all treatable illnesses. And not providing it is necessary because the cost would be too great. I agree it's cruel though.

aseipp 5y ago

> While it's morbid to consider the idea of just letting yourself die because you don't want to go into debt, it still is a choice... isn't it? No. I'm glad I could clear up this very difficult topic for you.

RobertRoberts 5y ago
Are you saying medical help is _always_ forced on you? I understand if you are unconscious, you can't decide, or in a coma. But what if you are lucid and asked by a doctor if you want a procedure or not?