4 ms·

While not having majored in medicine myself, I see no reason why CS couldn't have a 99% placement rate too.

1270018080 5y ago
I think placements rates are just a way to game data. I'm imagining two schools, one that accepts everyone that applies, and one that filters the bottom half out before acceptance. After graduation, the first school has a 50% placement rate, and the second has a 100%. Which one is better? Sure we can all pretend that "everyone can do it" but... everyone can't. Placement rates as a metric are just deciding when to filter the low performers out.
ska 5y ago
It's an interesting point, not just the placement rate but the graduation rate for medical schools is very high (barring a few last-chance, offshore type places if I understand correctly). I never did it but have watched the process from a few different viewpoints. My impression is that the gatekeeping on the entry side is pretty strong (not just exam results, good schools may have multiple interviews before letting you in) but they also have ton of resources available to help you if you are bogged down. This latter part is helped by high tuition. As for the vetting, as far as I can see they are fine with a bunch of false negatives, which results in more homogeneity than may be desired. It doesn't seem to be particularly empirical.
Hermitian909 5y ago
Most CS programs do not have 99% placement. There are a few reasons 1. Some people who graduate with CS degrees can't write good code. It is shocking how little you can learn while still graduating. 2. Some college graduates are lack the social/organizational skills for office work 3. Industry has a limited appetite for junior engineers because they're often a net drain on the company for the first 6-12 months and once they become productive can usually get a pay bump by switching jobs.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- shagie 5y ago
  Additional items: Many new grads have exaggerated expectations and refuse to consider or accept "lower" than working in big tech. Related to this, there are also the new grads that have some extremely niche role that they want to fill. I recall from a bit ago a new grad on reddit that wanted to do machine learning to save the whales while traveling on a research ship. Coming to the realization that most jobs aren't in the "safe the world" category was something of a shock / disillusionment for them. At least traditionally, many new grads have refused to consider other geographic areas. The "I want to do software development, but I am not willing to move out of {local area}." Some of this may be changing with remote jobs being more feasible - though there may still be restrictions on "you must reside within {some state} to qualify for WFH". This may be changing a bit, for some companies... but I still suspect that some companies are still going to require a "you may need to come into the office occasionally with a 24h notice." To point 3, even with the "they are a net drain and they job hop soon" there's also the "we need to add more capacity in the mid and senior levels before we add additional juniors to these teams." There are a lot of places where it's "here's a new junior, there's the code - go for it" because the mid and senior devs don't have the capacity to mentor them. I also suspect there is a common thought process of new grads that the quantity of applications is more important than the quality of the application -- sending out hundreds of applications even if there significant mismatches between the resume and the job posting that could be trivially corrected.
  - Hermitian909 5y ago
    > I also suspect there is a common thought process of new grads that the quantity of applications is more important than the quality of the application -- sending out hundreds of applications even if there significant mismatches between the resume and the job posting that could be trivially corrected. In fairness to new grads, the minimum requirements on job posting are often wildly out of line with what the job requires and what the employer will accept. I still meet plenty of junior engineers getting their first gig by applying to jobs that say 2+ years of experience when they have 0.
syndacks 5y ago
This is a troll comment.
- ResearchCode 5y ago
  The 99% placement of medical schools is not a "troll", no. There is no reason it could not apply to CS. Also note that most of the points made in contention would apply just as well to medical schools and medical school graduates. For instance, there are plenty of unsocialized medical school graduates - they are still called doctors. But if they studied STEM, they're supposedly "too bad to deserve a job". Weird. I'm leaning more towards there being an oversupply of STEM graduates.
  - lmm 5y ago
    I'd flip that around: there's a huge undersupply of medicine graduates, because the medical establishment very deliberately limits the number of students who are accepted. And while that does ensure that it's very easy for a doctor to find work, there are huge costs - huge competition for admissions, excessive working hours (with correspondingly high rates of burnout and suicide), routine interpersonal toxicity, spiralling prices for medical care that damage the rest of society.

I think placements rates are just a way to game data. I'm imagining two schools, one that accepts everyone that applies, and one that filters the bottom half out before acceptance. After graduation, the first school has a 50% placement rate, and the second has a 100%. Which one is better? Sure we can all pretend that "everyone can do it" but... everyone can't. Placement rates as a metric are just deciding when to filter the low performers out.

ska 5y ago

It's an interesting point, not just the placement rate but the graduation rate for medical schools is very high (barring a few last-chance, offshore type places if I understand correctly). I never did it but have watched the process from a few different viewpoints. My impression is that the gatekeeping on the entry side is pretty strong (not just exam results, good schools may have multiple interviews before letting you in) but they also have ton of resources available to help you if you are bogged down. This latter part is helped by high tuition. As for the vetting, as far as I can see they are fine with a bunch of false negatives, which results in more homogeneity than may be desired. It doesn't seem to be particularly empirical.

Hermitian909 5y ago

Most CS programs do not have 99% placement. There are a few reasons 1. Some people who graduate with CS degrees can't write good code. It is shocking how little you can learn while still graduating. 2. Some college graduates are lack the social/organizational skills for office work 3. Industry has a limited appetite for junior engineers because they're often a net drain on the company for the first 6-12 months and once they become productive can usually get a pay bump by switching jobs.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
shagie 5y ago
Additional items: Many new grads have exaggerated expectations and refuse to consider or accept "lower" than working in big tech. Related to this, there are also the new grads that have some extremely niche role that they want to fill. I recall from a bit ago a new grad on reddit that wanted to do machine learning to save the whales while traveling on a research ship. Coming to the realization that most jobs aren't in the "safe the world" category was something of a shock / disillusionment for them. At least traditionally, many new grads have refused to consider other geographic areas. The "I want to do software development, but I am not willing to move out of {local area}." Some of this may be changing with remote jobs being more feasible - though there may still be restrictions on "you must reside within {some state} to qualify for WFH". This may be changing a bit, for some companies... but I still suspect that some companies are still going to require a "you may need to come into the office occasionally with a 24h notice." To point 3, even with the "they are a net drain and they job hop soon" there's also the "we need to add more capacity in the mid and senior levels before we add additional juniors to these teams." There are a lot of places where it's "here's a new junior, there's the code - go for it" because the mid and senior devs don't have the capacity to mentor them. I also suspect there is a common thought process of new grads that the quantity of applications is more important than the quality of the application -- sending out hundreds of applications even if there significant mismatches between the resume and the job posting that could be trivially corrected.
- Hermitian909 5y ago
  > I also suspect there is a common thought process of new grads that the quantity of applications is more important than the quality of the application -- sending out hundreds of applications even if there significant mismatches between the resume and the job posting that could be trivially corrected. In fairness to new grads, the minimum requirements on job posting are often wildly out of line with what the job requires and what the employer will accept. I still meet plenty of junior engineers getting their first gig by applying to jobs that say 2+ years of experience when they have 0.

syndacks 5y ago

This is a troll comment.

ResearchCode 5y ago
The 99% placement of medical schools is not a "troll", no. There is no reason it could not apply to CS. Also note that most of the points made in contention would apply just as well to medical schools and medical school graduates. For instance, there are plenty of unsocialized medical school graduates - they are still called doctors. But if they studied STEM, they're supposedly "too bad to deserve a job". Weird. I'm leaning more towards there being an oversupply of STEM graduates.
- lmm 5y ago
  I'd flip that around: there's a huge undersupply of medicine graduates, because the medical establishment very deliberately limits the number of students who are accepted. And while that does ensure that it's very easy for a doctor to find work, there are huge costs - huge competition for admissions, excessive working hours (with correspondingly high rates of burnout and suicide), routine interpersonal toxicity, spiralling prices for medical care that damage the rest of society.