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Not only is there a ton of inductive evidence, but its been said by survivors themselves. Of course the less "reaching" conclusion is it was to coverup activiti

Not only is there a ton of inductive evidence, but its been said by survivors themselves. Of course the less "reaching" conclusion is it was to coverup activities they had spied on, but many things don't make sense with that proposal. We will probably never know for sure due to the degree of coverup. To be fair as the remaining survivors have gotten more traction they do usually avoid saying that directly, but they hint at it heavily. It was deliberate, all the deductive evidence points to it, so I find the framing of "even those who believe it was deliberate" to be slightly misleading.

kfprt 5y ago
It's amazing the level of defensive outrage this event generates 50 plus years on. If we can't have an open discussion about shady events in the past then maybe we need to investigate the current interests preventing that open discussion.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  >It's amazing the level of defensive outrage this event generates 50 plus years on That's the thing, though. About trying to make something of it now. Isn't it just anachronistic? I have the impression that people obsess over it because they believe that all that keeps Israel going is US support and if they just get people to believe the "truth" about the USS liberty then magic will happen. But the event was from back when the US wasn't a close ally. If it was intentional, how is it at all mysterious? What is there to say about it? They could've thought that US surveillance would give them away to those they were actually fighting. Again, it seems anachronistic, taking something from before the relationship as if it was a betrayal, to try to break up the relationship. No amount of rhetoric can move it forward to today.
  - kfprt 5y ago
    The implications seems to be that 'It was a long time ago, it didn't happen and if it did happen it doesn't matter'. An impressive amount of cognitive dissonance. It's not that people aren't trying to re contextualize the past all the time, the 1619 project for example. There is also much still kept secret 50 years on and it would be nice to learn more. Anyone who isn't pushing an agenda would agree with that. Personally I find it extremely distasteful that people here are still trying to bury this.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      You're not being specific, and you're addressing an imaginary monolith. Are you saying that it's revisionism to point out the US and Israel haven't been BFFs going all the way back to 1948? If that's what you think, clarify, don't insinuate.
      - kfprt 5y ago
        Since you deleted your other comment I'll reply to it here. >I haven't been talking to you about it for 50 years. I haven't been talking to anyone about it even as often as every year. Despite that, you can't engage in any way other than considering me part of the conspiracy? >I'm not an Israeli, and I'm willing to discuss the topic without debating whether Israel should in fact exist or what motivations someone might have for wishing it didn't. >Furthermore, I am not especially hostile, as an American, to the idea of disengaging from the middle east and the particular relationship the US currently has with Israel. >So I'm completely sincere and trying to be constructive when I give my personal view on tactics to disrupt it. I'd like to get behind the facade and understand what motivates people like you. >It's important to not believe your own BS even if you are propagandizing. To be aware of the correct history, for your own sake. Why do you assume I care about whether Israel exists or not? From my perspective it's a world away and has absolutely zero impact on my life. It's not my place or America's for that matter to get involved in intra semitic squabbles. What I find insidious are those who would propagandize and coverup the incident within this country. Such activities are utterly poisonous to an open democratic society. Frankly unamerican. As an addendum I think that if anyone deliberately attacks US military personnel then they deserve a proportional response. Who they are is irrelevant. If it's Gaddafi bomb him. If it's Al Qaeda bomb them. If it's the Vietnamese bomb them If it's Israel bomb them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_United_States_bombing_of_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_United_States_bombing_of_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
CrazyStat 5y ago
> Not only is there a ton of inductive evidence, I'm not sure what "inductive" means here. Does Israel have an extensive history of conducting false flag attacks by attacking US ships and then promptly admitting responsibility and apologizing for it? > but its been said by survivors themselves. Survivors who are obviously in no position to have any special information about Israel's motives, so irrelevant. > It was deliberate, all the deductive evidence points to it, so I find the framing of "even those who believe it was deliberate" to be slightly misleading. Not at all. Israel was at the time a young country with still relatively inexperienced armed forces, and had several notable friendly fire instances, including attacking a British ship during the Suez war. A deliberate attack is certainly plausible, but far from certain. You want to talk about misleading? How about your incredibly misleading claim that the Liberty was "just a ww [sic] transport vessel." Yes, it was a transport 25 years earlier. It was not a transport at the time of the attack. Its past history as a transport is entirely irrelevant. Israel has committed plenty of real crimes. By all means talk about them. You only hurt your credibility by pushing imaginary ones.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Overall I agree with you, but arminiusreturns was claiming that the USAT Liberty, the one at Bali, was a WWII transport, not the USS Liberty, the one Israel attacked.
- arminiusreturns 5y ago
  Israel had already at that time even as a young nation esablished they were willing to use false flag operations, primarily in the Kind David hotel bombing and in the Lavon Affair. These were intelligence agents spying on activities during a war between Israel and Egypt, Jordan and Syria, and they were told, no ordered, to keep their mouths shut about the incident. Their first hand knowledge cannot be so blithely and casually dismissed. Regardless of your ad hominem attack on the survivors of the massacre, not only do the yet still classified and unreleased NSA tapes exist that will one day confirm, but more recently declassified Israeli cables that support the statement that Israel knew it was American and wanted to sink it on purpose: "in a pair of diplomatic cables sent by the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Avraham Harman, to Foreign Minister Abba Eban in Tel Aviv. Five days after the Liberty attack, Harman cabled Eban that a source the Israelis code-named "Hamlet" was reporting that the Americans had "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway." Harman repeated the warning three days later, advising Eban, who is now dead, that the White House was "very angry," and that "the reason for this is that the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."" [1] Even beyond that, many people in a position to have first hand knowledge spoke to that effect, as can be seen in the rest of [1]. Furthermore, an even more covered up aspect of the story that lends credence to the "false flag" angle is this: according to the book Operation Cyanide: Why the Bombing of the USS Liberty Nearly Caused World War III [2], " at 8:45 a.m. EDT (2:45 p.m. off the coast of the Sinai Peninsula) on June 8, 1967 two A-4 bomber aircraft loaded with nuclear bombs were dispatched from the aircraft carrier USS America, bound for Cairo with orders to drop those bombs on that city." As for your comment about UAT liberty transport vessel, the actual relevant tidbit to the original post, it was a different vessel altogether... which I didn't know, and hence me even bringing this topic up in the first place. 1. https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html?coll=chi_news_nationworld_util&ctrack=2&cset=true https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.h... 2. https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Cyanide-Bombing-Liberty-Nearly/dp/1904132197 https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Cyanide-Bombing-Liberty-Nea... bonus two more very informational books on the topic: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079WLV7HT https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079WLV7HT https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07281WLWL https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07281WLWL Summary of Events: http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm Al Jazeera documentary" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx72tAWVcoM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx72tAWVcoM

kfprt 5y ago

It's amazing the level of defensive outrage this event generates 50 plus years on. If we can't have an open discussion about shady events in the past then maybe we need to investigate the current interests preventing that open discussion.

perl4ever 5y ago
>It's amazing the level of defensive outrage this event generates 50 plus years on That's the thing, though. About trying to make something of it now. Isn't it just anachronistic? I have the impression that people obsess over it because they believe that all that keeps Israel going is US support and if they just get people to believe the "truth" about the USS liberty then magic will happen. But the event was from back when the US wasn't a close ally. If it was intentional, how is it at all mysterious? What is there to say about it? They could've thought that US surveillance would give them away to those they were actually fighting. Again, it seems anachronistic, taking something from before the relationship as if it was a betrayal, to try to break up the relationship. No amount of rhetoric can move it forward to today.
- kfprt 5y ago
  The implications seems to be that 'It was a long time ago, it didn't happen and if it did happen it doesn't matter'. An impressive amount of cognitive dissonance. It's not that people aren't trying to re contextualize the past all the time, the 1619 project for example. There is also much still kept secret 50 years on and it would be nice to learn more. Anyone who isn't pushing an agenda would agree with that. Personally I find it extremely distasteful that people here are still trying to bury this.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    You're not being specific, and you're addressing an imaginary monolith. Are you saying that it's revisionism to point out the US and Israel haven't been BFFs going all the way back to 1948? If that's what you think, clarify, don't insinuate.
    - kfprt 5y ago
      Since you deleted your other comment I'll reply to it here. >I haven't been talking to you about it for 50 years. I haven't been talking to anyone about it even as often as every year. Despite that, you can't engage in any way other than considering me part of the conspiracy? >I'm not an Israeli, and I'm willing to discuss the topic without debating whether Israel should in fact exist or what motivations someone might have for wishing it didn't. >Furthermore, I am not especially hostile, as an American, to the idea of disengaging from the middle east and the particular relationship the US currently has with Israel. >So I'm completely sincere and trying to be constructive when I give my personal view on tactics to disrupt it. I'd like to get behind the facade and understand what motivates people like you. >It's important to not believe your own BS even if you are propagandizing. To be aware of the correct history, for your own sake. Why do you assume I care about whether Israel exists or not? From my perspective it's a world away and has absolutely zero impact on my life. It's not my place or America's for that matter to get involved in intra semitic squabbles. What I find insidious are those who would propagandize and coverup the incident within this country. Such activities are utterly poisonous to an open democratic society. Frankly unamerican. As an addendum I think that if anyone deliberately attacks US military personnel then they deserve a proportional response. Who they are is irrelevant. If it's Gaddafi bomb him. If it's Al Qaeda bomb them. If it's the Vietnamese bomb them If it's Israel bomb them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_United_States_bombing_of_Libya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_United_States_bombing_of_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infinite_Reach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

CrazyStat 5y ago

> Not only is there a ton of inductive evidence, I'm not sure what "inductive" means here. Does Israel have an extensive history of conducting false flag attacks by attacking US ships and then promptly admitting responsibility and apologizing for it? > but its been said by survivors themselves. Survivors who are obviously in no position to have any special information about Israel's motives, so irrelevant. > It was deliberate, all the deductive evidence points to it, so I find the framing of "even those who believe it was deliberate" to be slightly misleading. Not at all. Israel was at the time a young country with still relatively inexperienced armed forces, and had several notable friendly fire instances, including attacking a British ship during the Suez war. A deliberate attack is certainly plausible, but far from certain. You want to talk about misleading? How about your incredibly misleading claim that the Liberty was "just a ww [sic] transport vessel." Yes, it was a transport 25 years earlier. It was not a transport at the time of the attack. Its past history as a transport is entirely irrelevant. Israel has committed plenty of real crimes. By all means talk about them. You only hurt your credibility by pushing imaginary ones.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Overall I agree with you, but arminiusreturns was claiming that the USAT Liberty, the one at Bali, was a WWII transport, not the USS Liberty, the one Israel attacked.
arminiusreturns 5y ago
Israel had already at that time even as a young nation esablished they were willing to use false flag operations, primarily in the Kind David hotel bombing and in the Lavon Affair. These were intelligence agents spying on activities during a war between Israel and Egypt, Jordan and Syria, and they were told, no ordered, to keep their mouths shut about the incident. Their first hand knowledge cannot be so blithely and casually dismissed. Regardless of your ad hominem attack on the survivors of the massacre, not only do the yet still classified and unreleased NSA tapes exist that will one day confirm, but more recently declassified Israeli cables that support the statement that Israel knew it was American and wanted to sink it on purpose: "in a pair of diplomatic cables sent by the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Avraham Harman, to Foreign Minister Abba Eban in Tel Aviv. Five days after the Liberty attack, Harman cabled Eban that a source the Israelis code-named "Hamlet" was reporting that the Americans had "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway." Harman repeated the warning three days later, advising Eban, who is now dead, that the White House was "very angry," and that "the reason for this is that the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."" [1] Even beyond that, many people in a position to have first hand knowledge spoke to that effect, as can be seen in the rest of [1]. Furthermore, an even more covered up aspect of the story that lends credence to the "false flag" angle is this: according to the book Operation Cyanide: Why the Bombing of the USS Liberty Nearly Caused World War III [2], " at 8:45 a.m. EDT (2:45 p.m. off the coast of the Sinai Peninsula) on June 8, 1967 two A-4 bomber aircraft loaded with nuclear bombs were dispatched from the aircraft carrier USS America, bound for Cairo with orders to drop those bombs on that city." As for your comment about UAT liberty transport vessel, the actual relevant tidbit to the original post, it was a different vessel altogether... which I didn't know, and hence me even bringing this topic up in the first place. 1. https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html?coll=chi_news_nationworld_util&ctrack=2&cset=true https://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.h... 2. https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Cyanide-Bombing-Liberty-Nearly/dp/1904132197 https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Cyanide-Bombing-Liberty-Nea... bonus two more very informational books on the topic: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079WLV7HT https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079WLV7HT https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07281WLWL https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07281WLWL Summary of Events: http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm Al Jazeera documentary" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx72tAWVcoM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tx72tAWVcoM