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"Jan. 6 insurrection" Ever wonder if this whole thing is politically motivated to make sure anybody remotely conservative can't talk on Facebook? "Insurrectio

"Jan. 6 insurrection" Ever wonder if this whole thing is politically motivated to make sure anybody remotely conservative can't talk on Facebook? "Insurrection" is monstrously strong language to call something whose worst legal offense is illegal parading. [0] [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/jail-sentence-capitol-riot-misdemeanor-defendant/2021/09/28/118fe992-1d46-11ec-a99a-5fea2b2da34b_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/jail-sente...

mminer237 5y ago
You cite the conviction of a couple "low-level" people who only trespassing, but there were certainly people who were violent. Multiple people died. They threatened to kill the vice president and members of congress. If they weren't stopped, surely government officials would have died. It might be a strong word, but I don't think it is entirely unwarranted.
- bingohbangoh 5y ago
  The only pending legal charges and accusations are, at worst, the illegal parading. That's seriously it.
  - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
    "parading" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChLoiStjaZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChLoiStjaZc
  - kenjackson 5y ago
    This table shows arrests and charges worse than that: https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... Just on the first of 86 pages there are several worse than what you site.
  - mminer237 5y ago
    That's just not true. Many have been charged with theft, disorderly conduct, assault, and obstruction of an official proceeding: https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... Most are understandably still pending.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > The only pending legal charges and accusations are, at worst, the illegal parading. That's false. For one example (Zachary Jordan Alam), the charges are: Assaulting, Resisting, or Impeding Certain Officers; Assaulting, Resisting, or Impeding Certain Officers Using a Dangerous Weapon; Civil Disorder and Aiding and Abetting; Destruction of Government Property Exceeding $1,000; Obstruction of an Official Proceeding and Aiding and Abetting; Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon; Engaging in Physical Violence in a Restricted Building with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon; Disorderly Conduct in a Capitol Building; Act of Physical Violence in the Capitol Building; Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in Capitol There are lots more like that: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases
    - Leparamour 5y ago
      Is this a case of Gell-Mann amnesia in where the commenters usually lament how the US judicial system is fucked up in overcharging to force a plea deal but in this case the litany of charges is convenient proof of the extreme dangerousness of the Jan 6th protesters?
      - tyingq 5y ago
        For me, I recognize that historical issue, but saying that the worst current charge is illegal parading is just patently untrue. There's even video proof of at least misdemeanor assault/theft/etc, so there's not much to debate. I do recognize there's plenty of room to argue whether it was an insurrection or not. I'd personally call it a riot.
        Leparamour 5y ago
        >I'd personally call it a riot. In contrast to the 'mostly peaceful' BLM protests leading up the elections of 2020?
        tyingq 5y ago
        I assume some people were arrested for charges above and beyond illegal parading in (some of) those events as well.
  - kgermino 5y ago
    That's seriously a lie. There are a number of people charged (and some convicted after guilty pleas) of felonies such as assaulting police officers.
- koolba 5y ago
  > Multiple people died. The only person that died a non-natural cause death on that day was the unarmed woman shot by Capitol Police. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trump-riot-death-medical-exainer/2021/04/07/53806608-97cf-11eb-a6d0-13d207aadb78_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trump-rio... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-died-natural-causes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-die...
  - mminer237 5y ago
    Ah, I actually hadn't heard that update. My bad. Although technically Rosanne Boyland died of non-natural causes too.
    - benmmurphy 5y ago
      There are people claiming she was a victim of police violence as well. Though, considering there doesn't seem to be a serious investigation into this claim it is probably the realm of conspiracy theory. https://news-block.com/the-police-killed-her-three-more-eyewitnesses-who-were-later-arrested-speak-about-the-police-murder-of-protester-rosanne-boyland-on-january-6/ https://news-block.com/the-police-killed-her-three-more-eyew...
  - djaque 5y ago
    Ummmm... Ashli Babbit was a QAnon conspiracy theorist who broke into the capital during the Jan. 6 insurrection. She was at the front of a mob trying to get into the Speaker's Lobby containing representatives sheltering in place. The mob was commanding the police to let them in and started chanting to break down the door. Police warned them multiple times. Instead, Babbit climbs through a window in front of a police officer with a gun pointed at her after being commanded to not enter. She got within feet of representatives (who... mind you the mob was screaming death threats about). There was no way to know if she had hidden weapons on her body, especially with others at the insurrection carrying assault rifles. Any reasonable person would say the shooting was justified doubly so with a mob of conspiracy theorists behind her ready to brutalize some politicians. Don't gaslight people by just calling her "unarmed" especially when QAnon is turning her into a martyr for their movement. It's fundamentally dishonest.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jayd16 5y ago
Or you know, that officer that was murdered.
- bingohbangoh 5y ago
  he died of a stroke: https://news.yahoo.com/police-officer-capitol-riot-died-213600637.html https://news.yahoo.com/police-officer-capitol-riot-died-2136...
- hammock 5y ago
  I heard there was a protester who was killed by an officer (Ashli Babbitt), but didn't hear about an officer that was murdered. Do you have a link?
  - beaner 5y ago
    Further, according to a DC metropolitan police report, the killing was unnecessary and unjustified: https://securitystudies.org/report-shows-babbitt-not-a-deadly-threat/ https://securitystudies.org/report-shows-babbitt-not-a-deadl...
    - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
      According to the DOJ, the shooting was justified https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/department-justice-closes-investigation-death-ashli-babbitt https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/department-justice-closes...
      - beaner 5y ago
        Guess it depends on your own reason and interpretation then, and we all have an excuse to fall back to our existing biases and pre-chosen sides.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Further, according to a DC metropolitan police report, the killing was unnecessary and unjustified Incorrect. The report does not conclude that. A political advocacy site dedicated to “defending the value of American power against the true threats we face” concludes that “based on” the report, which is, very much, not the same thing.
throwaway1777 5y ago
Wait, breaking and entering into the capitol is “illegal parading”? I think insurrection is the wrong word too since it was more of a joke than a serious coup attempt, but when they actually broke into the building that was a big security issue.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Wait, breaking and entering into the capitol is “illegal parading”? No, illegally parading, demonstrating, or picketing in the Capitol is a minor offense most Jan. 6 defendants were charged with, often along with much more serious offense, including, for many, that of breaking and entering, acts of violence, use of dangerous weapons, and destruction of government property (all of which are more serious offenses.) The claim that that is the most serious offense charged (its a misdemeanor that can result in a maximum of 6 months on prison) is just a lie, many of the acts can be punished with a decade in prison, some maybe more than that (I haven't checked every charged offense.)
Karunamon 5y ago
No, I think it's significantly more serious than that when considering the rhetoric being used by some of the people. One of the people who was charged with misdemeanor trespassing posted a video saying “We broke into the Capitol. . . . We got inside, we did our part,” adding, “We were looking for Nancy to shoot her in the friggin’ brain, but we didn’t find her.” I'm pretty strongly in the conservative-free-speech-maximalist camp and can't condone this kind of violence apologia; it's on the wrong side of an uncontroversial bright line. The voices of anyone who can't talk without espousing violence against politicians they disagree with won't be missed in the national conversation.
literallyaduck 5y ago
One of those on "parade" was shot and killed. If someone dies while committing a crime in some states the entire party can be tried for murder. On the other hand I have watched videos of the "unwanted guests" being invited in, and in one case being given a tour. If you invite people in and then shoot them it could rightly be considered murder. Property was stolen and damaged which lends itself to being more than a guided tour. A similar event happened to the White House in March 4, 1829. A party was thrown and they trashed the white house. Another event for context: Bomb explodes in U.S. Capitol, Nov. 7, 1983 President Bill Clinton pardoned the now styled "activist". The whole event on the 6th was a cluster, and there was FBI involvement. Calling it an insurrection maybe right for the wrong reasons. "Cui bono" certainly not Trump nor the Conservatives. Either way both sides are in bed with big tech and all should resign from politics and we should have elections again and disqualify anyone who took money, or favors from big tech.
NikolaeVarius 5y ago
Oh yes, illegal parading https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... > Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers using a dangerous weapon or inflicting bodily injury; civil disorder; entering and remaining in a restricted building or grounds with a deadly or dangerous weapon; disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds; engaging in physical violence in a restricted building or grounds; disorderly conduct in a Capitol building; parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building
- zthrowaway 5y ago
  Thanks for describing the Portland riots that went on all of last year. Oh and they went a step further and actually tried to burn down federal buildings and kill police officers.
freen 5y ago
People with riot gear and zip ties stormed the capital with the express purpose of stopping the certification of a free and fair election. They were literally trying to overthrow an election. That was the point. It was coordinated with the highest levels of The GOP, including the president. There were two bombs. It has the full throated support of the entirety of the GOP leadership, who are doing everything in their power to block any investigation. More people died because of Jan 6th than the Beer Hall Putsch, which was substantially less successful than January 6th. If it wasn’t an insurrection, what was it?
- Auracle 5y ago
  The zip tie dude apparently got them from within the capitol and took them so they couldn’t be used against them. The rally was coordinated by the president, not breaking in to the capitol. We don’t know who placed the bombs. From their placement it seems to me they could have been used to kill people at the rally, but who knows. Let’s be real: it was a bunch of idiots that found an excuse to do something they thought would be fun, the same with all the other riots we’ve seen recently. If those people really wanted to mount an insurrection they would have brought and used firearms that they almost certainly own.
  - malermeister 5y ago
    > The zip tie dude apparently got them from within the capitol and took them so they couldn’t be used against them. If you believe that the guy in tacticool gear randomly found zipties and didnt bring them himself, I have a bridge to sell you.
  - pfarrell 5y ago
    To not take it seriously is an invitation to future escalation.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      The people arguing against taking it seriously know that already.
tyingq 5y ago
>strong language to call something whose worst legal offense is illegal parading There's a searchable table of charges as of October 19th, here: https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... It includes a few felonies, as well as misdemeanor assault charges, misdemeanor theft, etc. Use the search box and search for "felony", "weapon", "theft", "assault", "injury" and so on. The worst offense charged thus far is not illegal parading. It may the worst already fully pleaded out, because, well, people tend to plead out early for charges that sound like that. They hold on longer for more serious charges. I think there's also some effort from the various prosecutors to plead charges down either for expediency, or PR purposes , etc.
- neurobot123 5y ago
  Such a one-sided argument, There was a summer of BLM riots with way more violence going on for months, dozens killed , hundreds injured, countless shops looted and destroyed but that’s obviously “peaceful protests”.

mminer237 5y ago

You cite the conviction of a couple "low-level" people who only trespassing, but there were certainly people who were violent. Multiple people died. They threatened to kill the vice president and members of congress. If they weren't stopped, surely government officials would have died. It might be a strong word, but I don't think it is entirely unwarranted.

bingohbangoh 5y ago
The only pending legal charges and accusations are, at worst, the illegal parading. That's seriously it.
- NikolaeVarius 5y ago
  "parading" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChLoiStjaZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChLoiStjaZc
- kenjackson 5y ago
  This table shows arrests and charges worse than that: https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... Just on the first of 86 pages there are several worse than what you site.
- mminer237 5y ago
  That's just not true. Many have been charged with theft, disorderly conduct, assault, and obstruction of an official proceeding: https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... Most are understandably still pending.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > The only pending legal charges and accusations are, at worst, the illegal parading. That's false. For one example (Zachary Jordan Alam), the charges are: Assaulting, Resisting, or Impeding Certain Officers; Assaulting, Resisting, or Impeding Certain Officers Using a Dangerous Weapon; Civil Disorder and Aiding and Abetting; Destruction of Government Property Exceeding $1,000; Obstruction of an Official Proceeding and Aiding and Abetting; Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon; Engaging in Physical Violence in a Restricted Building with a Deadly or Dangerous Weapon; Disorderly Conduct in a Capitol Building; Act of Physical Violence in the Capitol Building; Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in Capitol There are lots more like that: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases
  - Leparamour 5y ago
    Is this a case of Gell-Mann amnesia in where the commenters usually lament how the US judicial system is fucked up in overcharging to force a plea deal but in this case the litany of charges is convenient proof of the extreme dangerousness of the Jan 6th protesters?
    - tyingq 5y ago
      For me, I recognize that historical issue, but saying that the worst current charge is illegal parading is just patently untrue. There's even video proof of at least misdemeanor assault/theft/etc, so there's not much to debate. I do recognize there's plenty of room to argue whether it was an insurrection or not. I'd personally call it a riot.
      - Leparamour 5y ago
        >I'd personally call it a riot. In contrast to the 'mostly peaceful' BLM protests leading up the elections of 2020?
        tyingq 5y ago
        I assume some people were arrested for charges above and beyond illegal parading in (some of) those events as well.
- kgermino 5y ago
  That's seriously a lie. There are a number of people charged (and some convicted after guilty pleas) of felonies such as assaulting police officers.
koolba 5y ago
> Multiple people died. The only person that died a non-natural cause death on that day was the unarmed woman shot by Capitol Police. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trump-riot-death-medical-exainer/2021/04/07/53806608-97cf-11eb-a6d0-13d207aadb78_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trump-rio... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-died-natural-causes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-die...
- mminer237 5y ago
  Ah, I actually hadn't heard that update. My bad. Although technically Rosanne Boyland died of non-natural causes too.
  - benmmurphy 5y ago
    There are people claiming she was a victim of police violence as well. Though, considering there doesn't seem to be a serious investigation into this claim it is probably the realm of conspiracy theory. https://news-block.com/the-police-killed-her-three-more-eyewitnesses-who-were-later-arrested-speak-about-the-police-murder-of-protester-rosanne-boyland-on-january-6/ https://news-block.com/the-police-killed-her-three-more-eyew...
- djaque 5y ago
  Ummmm... Ashli Babbit was a QAnon conspiracy theorist who broke into the capital during the Jan. 6 insurrection. She was at the front of a mob trying to get into the Speaker's Lobby containing representatives sheltering in place. The mob was commanding the police to let them in and started chanting to break down the door. Police warned them multiple times. Instead, Babbit climbs through a window in front of a police officer with a gun pointed at her after being commanded to not enter. She got within feet of representatives (who... mind you the mob was screaming death threats about). There was no way to know if she had hidden weapons on her body, especially with others at the insurrection carrying assault rifles. Any reasonable person would say the shooting was justified doubly so with a mob of conspiracy theorists behind her ready to brutalize some politicians. Don't gaslight people by just calling her "unarmed" especially when QAnon is turning her into a martyr for their movement. It's fundamentally dishonest.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jayd16 5y ago

Or you know, that officer that was murdered.

bingohbangoh 5y ago
he died of a stroke: https://news.yahoo.com/police-officer-capitol-riot-died-213600637.html https://news.yahoo.com/police-officer-capitol-riot-died-2136...
hammock 5y ago
I heard there was a protester who was killed by an officer (Ashli Babbitt), but didn't hear about an officer that was murdered. Do you have a link?
- beaner 5y ago
  Further, according to a DC metropolitan police report, the killing was unnecessary and unjustified: https://securitystudies.org/report-shows-babbitt-not-a-deadly-threat/ https://securitystudies.org/report-shows-babbitt-not-a-deadl...
  - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
    According to the DOJ, the shooting was justified https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/department-justice-closes-investigation-death-ashli-babbitt https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/department-justice-closes...
    - beaner 5y ago
      Guess it depends on your own reason and interpretation then, and we all have an excuse to fall back to our existing biases and pre-chosen sides.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Further, according to a DC metropolitan police report, the killing was unnecessary and unjustified Incorrect. The report does not conclude that. A political advocacy site dedicated to “defending the value of American power against the true threats we face” concludes that “based on” the report, which is, very much, not the same thing.

throwaway1777 5y ago

Wait, breaking and entering into the capitol is “illegal parading”? I think insurrection is the wrong word too since it was more of a joke than a serious coup attempt, but when they actually broke into the building that was a big security issue.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Wait, breaking and entering into the capitol is “illegal parading”? No, illegally parading, demonstrating, or picketing in the Capitol is a minor offense most Jan. 6 defendants were charged with, often along with much more serious offense, including, for many, that of breaking and entering, acts of violence, use of dangerous weapons, and destruction of government property (all of which are more serious offenses.) The claim that that is the most serious offense charged (its a misdemeanor that can result in a maximum of 6 months on prison) is just a lie, many of the acts can be punished with a decade in prison, some maybe more than that (I haven't checked every charged offense.)

Karunamon 5y ago

No, I think it's significantly more serious than that when considering the rhetoric being used by some of the people. One of the people who was charged with misdemeanor trespassing posted a video saying “We broke into the Capitol. . . . We got inside, we did our part,” adding, “We were looking for Nancy to shoot her in the friggin’ brain, but we didn’t find her.” I'm pretty strongly in the conservative-free-speech-maximalist camp and can't condone this kind of violence apologia; it's on the wrong side of an uncontroversial bright line. The voices of anyone who can't talk without espousing violence against politicians they disagree with won't be missed in the national conversation.

literallyaduck 5y ago

One of those on "parade" was shot and killed. If someone dies while committing a crime in some states the entire party can be tried for murder. On the other hand I have watched videos of the "unwanted guests" being invited in, and in one case being given a tour. If you invite people in and then shoot them it could rightly be considered murder. Property was stolen and damaged which lends itself to being more than a guided tour. A similar event happened to the White House in March 4, 1829. A party was thrown and they trashed the white house. Another event for context: Bomb explodes in U.S. Capitol, Nov. 7, 1983 President Bill Clinton pardoned the now styled "activist". The whole event on the 6th was a cluster, and there was FBI involvement. Calling it an insurrection maybe right for the wrong reasons. "Cui bono" certainly not Trump nor the Conservatives. Either way both sides are in bed with big tech and all should resign from politics and we should have elections again and disqualify anyone who took money, or favors from big tech.

NikolaeVarius 5y ago

Oh yes, illegal parading https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... > Assaulting, resisting, or impeding certain officers using a dangerous weapon or inflicting bodily injury; civil disorder; entering and remaining in a restricted building or grounds with a deadly or dangerous weapon; disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds; engaging in physical violence in a restricted building or grounds; disorderly conduct in a Capitol building; parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building

zthrowaway 5y ago
Thanks for describing the Portland riots that went on all of last year. Oh and they went a step further and actually tried to burn down federal buildings and kill police officers.

freen 5y ago

People with riot gear and zip ties stormed the capital with the express purpose of stopping the certification of a free and fair election. They were literally trying to overthrow an election. That was the point. It was coordinated with the highest levels of The GOP, including the president. There were two bombs. It has the full throated support of the entirety of the GOP leadership, who are doing everything in their power to block any investigation. More people died because of Jan 6th than the Beer Hall Putsch, which was substantially less successful than January 6th. If it wasn’t an insurrection, what was it?

Auracle 5y ago
The zip tie dude apparently got them from within the capitol and took them so they couldn’t be used against them. The rally was coordinated by the president, not breaking in to the capitol. We don’t know who placed the bombs. From their placement it seems to me they could have been used to kill people at the rally, but who knows. Let’s be real: it was a bunch of idiots that found an excuse to do something they thought would be fun, the same with all the other riots we’ve seen recently. If those people really wanted to mount an insurrection they would have brought and used firearms that they almost certainly own.
- malermeister 5y ago
  > The zip tie dude apparently got them from within the capitol and took them so they couldn’t be used against them. If you believe that the guy in tacticool gear randomly found zipties and didnt bring them himself, I have a bridge to sell you.
- pfarrell 5y ago
  To not take it seriously is an invitation to future escalation.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    The people arguing against taking it seriously know that already.

tyingq 5y ago

>strong language to call something whose worst legal offense is illegal parading There's a searchable table of charges as of October 19th, here: https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 https://www.insider.com/all-the-us-capitol-pro-trump-riot-ar... It includes a few felonies, as well as misdemeanor assault charges, misdemeanor theft, etc. Use the search box and search for "felony", "weapon", "theft", "assault", "injury" and so on. The worst offense charged thus far is not illegal parading. It may the worst already fully pleaded out, because, well, people tend to plead out early for charges that sound like that. They hold on longer for more serious charges. I think there's also some effort from the various prosecutors to plead charges down either for expediency, or PR purposes , etc.

neurobot123 5y ago
Such a one-sided argument, There was a summer of BLM riots with way more violence going on for months, dozens killed , hundreds injured, countless shops looted and destroyed but that’s obviously “peaceful protests”.