3 ms·

> one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is aptitude and drive. Networking, connections, and (external) credentialism?

zenithd 5y ago
Attending courses for four years, including many outside of your major, and doing enough work to not fail. It's a low bar. Very low. But still much higher than the bar at bootcamps. Anecdotally, the only positive interactions I've had with bootcamp cert holders were cases where the cert holder already had significant work experience that required non-trivial training (e.g., in healthcare, a trade, or logistics as opposed to retail/warehouse) or a 4 year degree. So I believe the earlier anecdote/observation that bootcamp grads -- especially "blank slates" -- often lack the grit that's required for successful employment in an IC eng role. I'm a self-taught programmer and had my first programming gigs prior to starting college. So I've been an advocate for non-traditional hires in most roles I've helped hire for. Even roles where we'd traditionally require a PhD and where the level of expertise required really is 3+ years post-graduate-coursework immersion in the research field, I've advocated for "phd in <subfield 1> and <subfield 2> or similar background" and helped source non-traditional candidates where possible. But the "lack of grit" problem wrt bootcamp grads is definitely a thing. > Networking and connections? You say this like it should be dismissed out-of-hand, but actually, having a reputation among your peers for not being a lazy idiot does not come free and is actually a useful signal in hiring.
bocklund 5y ago
Networking and connections get university students good jobs. Aptitude and drive are what makes them good at those jobs. I think the post you responded to was talking about the latter type of “success” at universities, but both are valid metrics of success.
- dnautics 5y ago
  I believe you are talking about excellence which is correlated to, but not necessarily concommitant with success.
notJim 5y ago
I honestly think these things are somewhat overrated. If you want to work at Google right out of school, maybe they matter more (particularly credentialism.) But I got my first three tech jobs simply by applying on the website, including one at a well-regarded startup. I don't have a CS degree, didn't have connections, and have never networked in my life. I think what actually mattered was laddering up from a sorta-crappy place to a less-crappy place to an actually-good place, and consciously filling in gaps in my skills, especially those relevant for interviewing. When I interviewed at the well-regarded startup, for some reason someone asked me to implement merge sort (lol!) Well, fortunately I had skimmed the algorithm on the plane over, on the off chance someone asked me. I could definitely get an interview at a FAANG at this point, because their recruiters reach out to me. As to whether I could get the job, I think it would mostly depend on my luck, skills, and preparation.
- dnautics 5y ago
  yeah but you found your way out via tech, which is a very exceptional case (I did the same thing, after spending almost two decades not-in-tech). And anyways GP said: > one single thing that makes traditional university education successful Probably is "external credentialism", if there were a single thing. Think of the largest employer in the US (federal government). Credentials are CRAZY important for positions in that org.

zenithd 5y ago

Attending courses for four years, including many outside of your major, and doing enough work to not fail. It's a low bar. Very low. But still much higher than the bar at bootcamps. Anecdotally, the only positive interactions I've had with bootcamp cert holders were cases where the cert holder already had significant work experience that required non-trivial training (e.g., in healthcare, a trade, or logistics as opposed to retail/warehouse) or a 4 year degree. So I believe the earlier anecdote/observation that bootcamp grads -- especially "blank slates" -- often lack the grit that's required for successful employment in an IC eng role. I'm a self-taught programmer and had my first programming gigs prior to starting college. So I've been an advocate for non-traditional hires in most roles I've helped hire for. Even roles where we'd traditionally require a PhD and where the level of expertise required really is 3+ years post-graduate-coursework immersion in the research field, I've advocated for "phd in <subfield 1> and <subfield 2> or similar background" and helped source non-traditional candidates where possible. But the "lack of grit" problem wrt bootcamp grads is definitely a thing. > Networking and connections? You say this like it should be dismissed out-of-hand, but actually, having a reputation among your peers for not being a lazy idiot does not come free and is actually a useful signal in hiring.

bocklund 5y ago

Networking and connections get university students good jobs. Aptitude and drive are what makes them good at those jobs. I think the post you responded to was talking about the latter type of “success” at universities, but both are valid metrics of success.

dnautics 5y ago
I believe you are talking about excellence which is correlated to, but not necessarily concommitant with success.

notJim 5y ago

I honestly think these things are somewhat overrated. If you want to work at Google right out of school, maybe they matter more (particularly credentialism.) But I got my first three tech jobs simply by applying on the website, including one at a well-regarded startup. I don't have a CS degree, didn't have connections, and have never networked in my life. I think what actually mattered was laddering up from a sorta-crappy place to a less-crappy place to an actually-good place, and consciously filling in gaps in my skills, especially those relevant for interviewing. When I interviewed at the well-regarded startup, for some reason someone asked me to implement merge sort (lol!) Well, fortunately I had skimmed the algorithm on the plane over, on the off chance someone asked me. I could definitely get an interview at a FAANG at this point, because their recruiters reach out to me. As to whether I could get the job, I think it would mostly depend on my luck, skills, and preparation.

dnautics 5y ago
yeah but you found your way out via tech, which is a very exceptional case (I did the same thing, after spending almost two decades not-in-tech). And anyways GP said: > one single thing that makes traditional university education successful Probably is "external credentialism", if there were a single thing. Think of the largest employer in the US (federal government). Credentials are CRAZY important for positions in that org.