4 ms·

> brake elements that need exactly as much servicing Brakes are generally used a lot less thanks to regenerative braking (kind of like trucks use eddy current

> brake elements that need exactly as much servicing Brakes are generally used a lot less thanks to regenerative braking (kind of like trucks use eddy current brakes to lessen wear on mechanical parts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake https://www.klamretarder.com/en/retarders/truck-brakes-cfk https://www.klamretarder.com/en/retarders/truck-brakes-cfk ). > They are fixing fluid leaks There is also much less fluids circulating (some cars, not all, use liquid-cooled batteries and engines; add windshield wipers and that's about it). So less fluids to worry about. There is just a few orders of magnitude less mechanical parts that can wear out and require servicing. Suspension, tires and body work is still required, of course. There will probably be maintenance needs on auxiliary systems like the in-car entertainment system or headlights. However, most of the maintenance work on regular cars is related to the combustion engine: timing belt changes, oil changes, gearbox issues, brakes, exhaust, differential, shaft, fuel pump, air, fuel and oil filters, spark plugs, starter, lead battery. A whole class of issues is avoided (timing belt failure, running without oil or coolant, inadequate fuel). Generally, control electronics should also be more integrated and prevent major (expensive) failures.

lelanthran 5y ago
> There is just a few orders of magnitude less mechanical parts that can wear out and require servicing. I don't think you realise what "orders of magnitude" means. There are very few things in an ICE car that "can wear out and require servicing" that aren't on the EV unless you count each nut, bolt and rod in an ICE car as a separate part that requires servicing. The engine in an ICE is easily, cheaply and (relatively) quickly swapped out for one with all new parts, hence the engine is usually one single swappable part. Other than that, all the other components are going to be found on the EV too.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  I strongly disagree - full engine swaps are rare in ICEs and definitely not cheap, and most of the expensive servicing I've needed personally and seen in my community is directly related to the parts that EVs don't have at all - turbine issues hit you right in the wallet, gearbox/transmission issues, fuel pumps, etc. In comparison, the servicing needed for parts that are shared between ICE and EV - wheels, suspension, bodywork - is relatively cheap unless you need to repair collision damage.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Engine swaps are extraordinarily rare outside of custom cars. Swaps are far from simple affairs unless the car was designed to accommodate such custom work. But in reality ICEs are such a mature technology that engines now regularly outlast the rest of the car. Sure, external aspects sometimes need bits and pieces (fuel/coolant pumps, sensors etc) but the days of replacing cylinder heads or thrown rods are long gone. Even blown gaskets are almost not a thing anymore.
  - pas 5y ago
    "Interestingly" most problems with ICE are almost completely electronic. (Sensors, circuits, and the occasional electric motors.) Because the mechanical components are so well optimized "away".
  - pengaru 5y ago
    They meant engine swap using the same engine make/model. Swapping in a used or new one as a unit to replace the old one, without getting bogged down in details of engine internals. That's not unusual at all, and is actually a rather easy task even DIY hobbyists take on at home. I personally swapped out the motor on my turbo miata in a weekend after cracking a piston, using nothing but plain hand tools and some rachet straps thrown over a rafter as a hoist. The used low-mileage replacement was found locally for $250 and ran strong, bolted right in. The only fiddly bit was I had to drill and tap the oil return hole in the oil pan for the aftermarket turbo. On another occasion I swapped an 05 motor into an 04 R1 for a friend, another small weekend project, didn't even get the floor wet. Modern ICEs are quite well contained, loosely coupled (though less so on exotics/superbikes with stressed member engines), consistently affixed (within generations) modules. Mass production kind of forces this outcome. You can swap them out easily.
- MayeulC 5y ago
  > There are very few things in an ICE car that "can wear out and require servicing" that aren't on the EV unless you count each nut, bolt and rod in an ICE car as a separate part that requires servicing. I would have put it the other way: if you count every nut and bolt, total count is likely to be similar on both ends. If you only count relatively critical parts, though, I think you can easily reach 10-100x the number of mechanical parts that can fail on an ICE, unless you count the ICE as a single part (which it really isn't). > The engine in an ICE is easily, cheaply and (relatively) quickly swapped out for one with all new parts Last engine swap I had to look at (timing belt failure) was about 10k€, which I don't consider cheap at all (that's about half the vehicle value if you are lucky, and often isn't worth it). There is generally a lot that can go wrong on an engine and needs to be addressed individually, from piston/engine seals and resurfacing (expensive) to spark plugs (cheap) and clutch. Full engine swaps are usually your last ressort. And all of these parts playing nice together requires a lot of tuning, sometimes requiring some mechanical trimming here and there. Granted, I am no professional mechanic (dunning-kruger applies), but some family members are, and I've often had to assist with complex repairs. The mechanical complexity of an internal combustion engine is really... nuts, and just lifting it out of the car usually requires a few hours of work, and a lot of plumbing.
- m-i-l 5y ago
  >There are very few things in an ICE car that "can wear out and require servicing" that aren't on the EV unless you count each nut, bolt and rod in an ICE car as a separate part that requires servicing. On the contrary, the figure I'd heard is that electric vehicles have around 1,000 fewer parts than a fossil fuel based car. A quick search for references now I've found "Conventional powertrains may have as many as 2,000 moving parts ... while electric powertrains may have as few 20"[0] and "70% of an electric vehicle's component parts may be different from a gasoline-powered vehicle... The electric vehicle has one moving part, the motor, whereas the gasoline-powered vehicle has hundreds of moving parts"[1]. The relative simplicity of electric vehicles, with none of the sophisticated mechanisms for controlling regular explosions, e.g starter plug, fuel pump, fuel injector, air intake, radiator, oil pump, cam shafts, gears, pistons, fan belt, exhaust system, etc., is one of the major benefits from most people's perspective (although not admittedly from the perspective of a fossil fuel car mechanic). [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/05/30/more-electric-cars-fewer-manufacturing-jobs/?sh=1949e1433378 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/05/30/more-ele... [1] https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/compare.pdf https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/compare.pdf
- ZetaZero 5y ago
  > hence the engine is usually one single swappable part. So if I need new spark plugs, I just swap out the engine?

lelanthran 5y ago

> There is just a few orders of magnitude less mechanical parts that can wear out and require servicing. I don't think you realise what "orders of magnitude" means. There are very few things in an ICE car that "can wear out and require servicing" that aren't on the EV unless you count each nut, bolt and rod in an ICE car as a separate part that requires servicing. The engine in an ICE is easily, cheaply and (relatively) quickly swapped out for one with all new parts, hence the engine is usually one single swappable part. Other than that, all the other components are going to be found on the EV too.

PeterisP 5y ago
I strongly disagree - full engine swaps are rare in ICEs and definitely not cheap, and most of the expensive servicing I've needed personally and seen in my community is directly related to the parts that EVs don't have at all - turbine issues hit you right in the wallet, gearbox/transmission issues, fuel pumps, etc. In comparison, the servicing needed for parts that are shared between ICE and EV - wheels, suspension, bodywork - is relatively cheap unless you need to repair collision damage.
sandworm101 5y ago
Engine swaps are extraordinarily rare outside of custom cars. Swaps are far from simple affairs unless the car was designed to accommodate such custom work. But in reality ICEs are such a mature technology that engines now regularly outlast the rest of the car. Sure, external aspects sometimes need bits and pieces (fuel/coolant pumps, sensors etc) but the days of replacing cylinder heads or thrown rods are long gone. Even blown gaskets are almost not a thing anymore.
- pas 5y ago
  "Interestingly" most problems with ICE are almost completely electronic. (Sensors, circuits, and the occasional electric motors.) Because the mechanical components are so well optimized "away".
- pengaru 5y ago
  They meant engine swap using the same engine make/model. Swapping in a used or new one as a unit to replace the old one, without getting bogged down in details of engine internals. That's not unusual at all, and is actually a rather easy task even DIY hobbyists take on at home. I personally swapped out the motor on my turbo miata in a weekend after cracking a piston, using nothing but plain hand tools and some rachet straps thrown over a rafter as a hoist. The used low-mileage replacement was found locally for $250 and ran strong, bolted right in. The only fiddly bit was I had to drill and tap the oil return hole in the oil pan for the aftermarket turbo. On another occasion I swapped an 05 motor into an 04 R1 for a friend, another small weekend project, didn't even get the floor wet. Modern ICEs are quite well contained, loosely coupled (though less so on exotics/superbikes with stressed member engines), consistently affixed (within generations) modules. Mass production kind of forces this outcome. You can swap them out easily.
MayeulC 5y ago
> There are very few things in an ICE car that "can wear out and require servicing" that aren't on the EV unless you count each nut, bolt and rod in an ICE car as a separate part that requires servicing. I would have put it the other way: if you count every nut and bolt, total count is likely to be similar on both ends. If you only count relatively critical parts, though, I think you can easily reach 10-100x the number of mechanical parts that can fail on an ICE, unless you count the ICE as a single part (which it really isn't). > The engine in an ICE is easily, cheaply and (relatively) quickly swapped out for one with all new parts Last engine swap I had to look at (timing belt failure) was about 10k€, which I don't consider cheap at all (that's about half the vehicle value if you are lucky, and often isn't worth it). There is generally a lot that can go wrong on an engine and needs to be addressed individually, from piston/engine seals and resurfacing (expensive) to spark plugs (cheap) and clutch. Full engine swaps are usually your last ressort. And all of these parts playing nice together requires a lot of tuning, sometimes requiring some mechanical trimming here and there. Granted, I am no professional mechanic (dunning-kruger applies), but some family members are, and I've often had to assist with complex repairs. The mechanical complexity of an internal combustion engine is really... nuts, and just lifting it out of the car usually requires a few hours of work, and a lot of plumbing.
m-i-l 5y ago
>There are very few things in an ICE car that "can wear out and require servicing" that aren't on the EV unless you count each nut, bolt and rod in an ICE car as a separate part that requires servicing. On the contrary, the figure I'd heard is that electric vehicles have around 1,000 fewer parts than a fossil fuel based car. A quick search for references now I've found "Conventional powertrains may have as many as 2,000 moving parts ... while electric powertrains may have as few 20"[0] and "70% of an electric vehicle's component parts may be different from a gasoline-powered vehicle... The electric vehicle has one moving part, the motor, whereas the gasoline-powered vehicle has hundreds of moving parts"[1]. The relative simplicity of electric vehicles, with none of the sophisticated mechanisms for controlling regular explosions, e.g starter plug, fuel pump, fuel injector, air intake, radiator, oil pump, cam shafts, gears, pistons, fan belt, exhaust system, etc., is one of the major benefits from most people's perspective (although not admittedly from the perspective of a fossil fuel car mechanic). [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/05/30/more-electric-cars-fewer-manufacturing-jobs/?sh=1949e1433378 https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2019/05/30/more-ele... [1] https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/compare.pdf https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/compare.pdf
ZetaZero 5y ago
> hence the engine is usually one single swappable part. So if I need new spark plugs, I just swap out the engine?