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To make a different point than all the camera naysayers so far: I I'd be WFH for two years during covid, and everyone had their cameras off, I'd go crazy. Not

To make a different point than all the camera naysayers so far: I I'd be WFH for two years during covid, and everyone had their cameras off, I'd go crazy. Not seeing a face for months, being stressed about the other party in a meeting not even paying attention, just speaking into a void etc.

tomrod 5y ago
I actually enjoy video-off-first with the very occasional video share invitation. At first I thought I'd hate it, but now the stress of maintaining "meeting face" for hours on end is removed.
jacobmischka 5y ago
It's extremely rude in my opinion when people simply don't turn their cameras on in virtual meetings. Unfortunately, no one at my workplace except me does.
- piva00 5y ago
  Rude? Have you considered the other side? I'm extremely fatigued by having the camera on, I feel surveilled and every movement I do in front of it is calculated by my unconscious mind. It takes a real toll on my productivity having to have the camera on for a string of meetings. I feel it's extremely rude to dismiss others' experiences with the damn camera on for a virtual meeting. What is up that you need someone else to have a camera pointing to their face that you can't have with their voices? For most meetings that I don't require my computer I'll even go for a short walk around the house, while bouncing ideas, raising questions and so on. I feel much more productive in the meetings I'm able to disengage from my computer and surroundings and immerse on the conversation without having to care about a camera showing my face. Being very honest, being forced to turn my camera on is a major red flag, the fatigue is real and consumed me after a year on this, since last December I've been turning my camera off and it's been incredibly productive. Judge as much as you want but it seems you have no empathy, worse than that, you want to force your ways of working unto others without even considering others' struggles with it.
  - lucumo 5y ago
    > What is up that you need someone else to have a camera pointing to their face that you can't have with their voices? Smiles, frowns, nods, glazed looks, puzzled looks, surprised looks, I-want-to-say-something-but-I-can't-get-a-word-in looks, zoning out, impatience, et cetera, et cetera. There's really a lot people communicate with their faces, both consciously and unconsciously.
    - b3morales 5y ago
      This is fair, but I'm skeptical that these things are actually taken into account in the vast majority of video meetings. Whereas you're right, they're important face-to-face.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      People also focus their attention. If I'm at an in-person meeting of 5-8 people, and 3 of them get into a longer discussion about things that are irrelevant to me, and for understanding which I don't have the background, I can zone out and nobody cares, because nobody is looking at me. Everyone is looking at the people talking. On a video call, my zoned-out face will make the trio feel uneasy; instead of discussing their topic quickly, they'll stumble and try to "talk to the audience", or god forbid, drag everyone else into the discussion. So with forced camera on, I have to look focused while squinting at the other screen, discretely playing 2048 and pinching myself to not yawn visibly, while with camera off, I could get off my chair, stretch a little, or do something actually useful for the company. I'll be happier with having always-on camera on long videocalls when videocalls start working like real-life meetings: not everyone is looking at everyone else all the time, and everyone can tell who's looking at them in any given moment. The way things are today, I find this constant surveillance to be mentally tormenting, and only activate my camera on the basis of courtesy: 1:1 meetings, some team meetings, meetings with an important higher-up who also has their camera on, etc.
      - lucumo 5y ago
        I use people zoning out as a sign that the topic is not a good fit for this meeting, and should be discussed outside of it with a smaller group. That seems to work well to keep meetings quick and on point.
- babyshake 5y ago
  It may depend on the context. In a small or one on one meeting, yes it is usually rude. In a meeting with more than 5-10 people where I'm not expected to be a very active participant? I think it's fine. I also expect if someone would like the camera to be on at these meetings they would be able to tell me that and I'd usually be happy to do so if requested.
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    In one-on-one meetings we're usually discussing some technical detail or issue, and one or both of us will be looking at an IDE, or a document, or something that is not the browser tab where the audio is coming from. Not having a camera distracting me helps me to help the other party and give them my full concentration. This is amply reflected in the audio, just like a telephone call, and in a one-on-one call you can both just leave the mic open and have a normal conversation with all the social cues audio communication offers.
- random_kris 5y ago
  Why rude? Organizer of the meeting should either tell participants to use camera or whichever they prefer. And chosing not to turn it on is far from rude
- darcys22 5y ago
  Counter point: i find the expectation to have a camera turned on rude. Different people have different expectations and there are probably a lot of reasons for the wide variety. However it kinda sounds like you have a different expectation than the team you work with. Would be mindful of taking the stance that ‘everyone else is wrong’
- andrewzah 5y ago
  IMHO it’s rude to demand cameras always be on. You can get your social fix elsewhere. For my company we’ve used zoom for the last 3 years, and never turn on our cameras unless there’s a specific reason.
- diffeomorphism 5y ago
  > It's extremely rude in my opinion > no one at my workplace except me That tells you your opinion is wrong. It is not rude at all and nobody but you minds. Just say "I would prefer if" instead of claiming that something "is rude".
  - jacobmischka 5y ago
    Please refresh yourself on the definition of the word "opinion".
    - diffeomorphism 5y ago
      The sky is green in my opinion.
- MereInterest 5y ago
  I think it very much depends on the circumstances, just like most social rules. If somebody is in an office space, then it can make sense to have everybody on camera as the default. On the other hand, if people are working from spaces that were never intended as working space, then it would be rude to assume that they should give a view into their private space. For the first ~12 months of the pandemic, I was working from home, using my desk in the living room because there wasn't a good spot for it anywhere else. Having my camera on would have meant having my living room in full view, often including my partner on the couch in the background. While background detection/subtraction does exist, it isn't perfect, and so that would be an intrusive view into our private area. I've since moved to a different location, with a room to be a dedicated home office. Here, it wouldn't impose on private space to turn on the camera, because that was part of the intent behind that room. However, you as the person on the other end of the call cannot know which situation somebody is in, and so it would be rude to insist on video beyond a polite request.
- prionassembly 5y ago
  I live with other people and it's not always polite to ask them to dance around my meetings schedule.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  I don't know, I have kept my camera on for the last 6 months during my current project and it is exhausting. Its not like a regular in person meeting, your face is magnified. Every flaw is made larger, if I have not shaved or had a chance to shower yet (we have very early meetings to accommodate offshore teams) its obvious. Keeping the camera on means that people are seeing your house which is far more personal that meeting in an office. I have kids that regularly wreck the place and if I don't have time to clean up after dropping them off at school it can be obvious. In addition camera being on means I have to face it and it limits my ability to work during the meeting. One might argue that I should not be working during the meeting but I have work that needs to get done regardless of how many useless meetings I am dragged into every day (lots). I decided today that going forward I am going to keep my camera off. If someone calls me out on it I will reconsider but going forward I am going to be comfortable. Working from home already means I am always at work, I am going to attempt to claw back some of my independence.
2wrist 5y ago
Yes, very true. Having the camera off also means that we miss out on lots of non-verbal cues. I can't tell you the amount of difficult meetings I have had where people are edgy when the camera is off. With it on there is often a more relaxed vibe as people don't get the wrong end of the stick as much.
- BlargMcLarg 5y ago
  This can go the other way as well, thinking visual cues imply X when they actually imply Y. On the other hand, one can resolve most of these scenarios by asking the other party to elaborate and to keep emotionally charged arguments / personalities off the table, rather than assuming their emotional state and trying to play off of it or feeling attacked.
  - Kye 5y ago
    This is a huge part of why I prefer text. It would be one thing if people could misread my face or voice, then take my word for it when I tell them what I actually mean. But what often happens is they dig in on thinking they've struck it rich on some deep insight into my psyche and proceed to tell me what I really think. Not everyone is like this. I can have a great time with people who compare inputs, see they diverge, and weigh the one that provides the most charitable view higher. This is usually my actual words, which I've been told sometimes comes with a "tone" that sends all the wrong signals. It turns out a lot of people read my usual pace--which can be way too fast at first--as anger or annoyance. When people focus on the words, it's obvious (by their own account) that I'm calm and enjoying the conversation. It's usually a cue to take a deep breath and slow down. But it's hard to remember to do that from the start, and not everyone is willing to let the tone go once I take that control. And then the deep breath becomes part of the imagined anger/annoyance. It's made me wary of voice and video chat, and wary of people who prefer it specifically because they want to use the way people look and speak to determine what's going on in their heads rather than pay attention to their words.
syndacks 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

tomrod 5y ago

I actually enjoy video-off-first with the very occasional video share invitation. At first I thought I'd hate it, but now the stress of maintaining "meeting face" for hours on end is removed.

jacobmischka 5y ago

It's extremely rude in my opinion when people simply don't turn their cameras on in virtual meetings. Unfortunately, no one at my workplace except me does.

piva00 5y ago
Rude? Have you considered the other side? I'm extremely fatigued by having the camera on, I feel surveilled and every movement I do in front of it is calculated by my unconscious mind. It takes a real toll on my productivity having to have the camera on for a string of meetings. I feel it's extremely rude to dismiss others' experiences with the damn camera on for a virtual meeting. What is up that you need someone else to have a camera pointing to their face that you can't have with their voices? For most meetings that I don't require my computer I'll even go for a short walk around the house, while bouncing ideas, raising questions and so on. I feel much more productive in the meetings I'm able to disengage from my computer and surroundings and immerse on the conversation without having to care about a camera showing my face. Being very honest, being forced to turn my camera on is a major red flag, the fatigue is real and consumed me after a year on this, since last December I've been turning my camera off and it's been incredibly productive. Judge as much as you want but it seems you have no empathy, worse than that, you want to force your ways of working unto others without even considering others' struggles with it.
- lucumo 5y ago
  > What is up that you need someone else to have a camera pointing to their face that you can't have with their voices? Smiles, frowns, nods, glazed looks, puzzled looks, surprised looks, I-want-to-say-something-but-I-can't-get-a-word-in looks, zoning out, impatience, et cetera, et cetera. There's really a lot people communicate with their faces, both consciously and unconsciously.
  - b3morales 5y ago
    This is fair, but I'm skeptical that these things are actually taken into account in the vast majority of video meetings. Whereas you're right, they're important face-to-face.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    People also focus their attention. If I'm at an in-person meeting of 5-8 people, and 3 of them get into a longer discussion about things that are irrelevant to me, and for understanding which I don't have the background, I can zone out and nobody cares, because nobody is looking at me. Everyone is looking at the people talking. On a video call, my zoned-out face will make the trio feel uneasy; instead of discussing their topic quickly, they'll stumble and try to "talk to the audience", or god forbid, drag everyone else into the discussion. So with forced camera on, I have to look focused while squinting at the other screen, discretely playing 2048 and pinching myself to not yawn visibly, while with camera off, I could get off my chair, stretch a little, or do something actually useful for the company. I'll be happier with having always-on camera on long videocalls when videocalls start working like real-life meetings: not everyone is looking at everyone else all the time, and everyone can tell who's looking at them in any given moment. The way things are today, I find this constant surveillance to be mentally tormenting, and only activate my camera on the basis of courtesy: 1:1 meetings, some team meetings, meetings with an important higher-up who also has their camera on, etc.
    - lucumo 5y ago
      I use people zoning out as a sign that the topic is not a good fit for this meeting, and should be discussed outside of it with a smaller group. That seems to work well to keep meetings quick and on point.
babyshake 5y ago
It may depend on the context. In a small or one on one meeting, yes it is usually rude. In a meeting with more than 5-10 people where I'm not expected to be a very active participant? I think it's fine. I also expect if someone would like the camera to be on at these meetings they would be able to tell me that and I'd usually be happy to do so if requested.
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  In one-on-one meetings we're usually discussing some technical detail or issue, and one or both of us will be looking at an IDE, or a document, or something that is not the browser tab where the audio is coming from. Not having a camera distracting me helps me to help the other party and give them my full concentration. This is amply reflected in the audio, just like a telephone call, and in a one-on-one call you can both just leave the mic open and have a normal conversation with all the social cues audio communication offers.
random_kris 5y ago
Why rude? Organizer of the meeting should either tell participants to use camera or whichever they prefer. And chosing not to turn it on is far from rude
darcys22 5y ago
Counter point: i find the expectation to have a camera turned on rude. Different people have different expectations and there are probably a lot of reasons for the wide variety. However it kinda sounds like you have a different expectation than the team you work with. Would be mindful of taking the stance that ‘everyone else is wrong’
andrewzah 5y ago
IMHO it’s rude to demand cameras always be on. You can get your social fix elsewhere. For my company we’ve used zoom for the last 3 years, and never turn on our cameras unless there’s a specific reason.
diffeomorphism 5y ago
> It's extremely rude in my opinion > no one at my workplace except me That tells you your opinion is wrong. It is not rude at all and nobody but you minds. Just say "I would prefer if" instead of claiming that something "is rude".
- jacobmischka 5y ago
  Please refresh yourself on the definition of the word "opinion".
  - diffeomorphism 5y ago
    The sky is green in my opinion.
MereInterest 5y ago
I think it very much depends on the circumstances, just like most social rules. If somebody is in an office space, then it can make sense to have everybody on camera as the default. On the other hand, if people are working from spaces that were never intended as working space, then it would be rude to assume that they should give a view into their private space. For the first ~12 months of the pandemic, I was working from home, using my desk in the living room because there wasn't a good spot for it anywhere else. Having my camera on would have meant having my living room in full view, often including my partner on the couch in the background. While background detection/subtraction does exist, it isn't perfect, and so that would be an intrusive view into our private area. I've since moved to a different location, with a room to be a dedicated home office. Here, it wouldn't impose on private space to turn on the camera, because that was part of the intent behind that room. However, you as the person on the other end of the call cannot know which situation somebody is in, and so it would be rude to insist on video beyond a polite request.
prionassembly 5y ago
I live with other people and it's not always polite to ask them to dance around my meetings schedule.
wonderwonder 5y ago
I don't know, I have kept my camera on for the last 6 months during my current project and it is exhausting. Its not like a regular in person meeting, your face is magnified. Every flaw is made larger, if I have not shaved or had a chance to shower yet (we have very early meetings to accommodate offshore teams) its obvious. Keeping the camera on means that people are seeing your house which is far more personal that meeting in an office. I have kids that regularly wreck the place and if I don't have time to clean up after dropping them off at school it can be obvious. In addition camera being on means I have to face it and it limits my ability to work during the meeting. One might argue that I should not be working during the meeting but I have work that needs to get done regardless of how many useless meetings I am dragged into every day (lots). I decided today that going forward I am going to keep my camera off. If someone calls me out on it I will reconsider but going forward I am going to be comfortable. Working from home already means I am always at work, I am going to attempt to claw back some of my independence.

2wrist 5y ago

Yes, very true. Having the camera off also means that we miss out on lots of non-verbal cues. I can't tell you the amount of difficult meetings I have had where people are edgy when the camera is off. With it on there is often a more relaxed vibe as people don't get the wrong end of the stick as much.

BlargMcLarg 5y ago
This can go the other way as well, thinking visual cues imply X when they actually imply Y. On the other hand, one can resolve most of these scenarios by asking the other party to elaborate and to keep emotionally charged arguments / personalities off the table, rather than assuming their emotional state and trying to play off of it or feeling attacked.
- Kye 5y ago
  This is a huge part of why I prefer text. It would be one thing if people could misread my face or voice, then take my word for it when I tell them what I actually mean. But what often happens is they dig in on thinking they've struck it rich on some deep insight into my psyche and proceed to tell me what I really think. Not everyone is like this. I can have a great time with people who compare inputs, see they diverge, and weigh the one that provides the most charitable view higher. This is usually my actual words, which I've been told sometimes comes with a "tone" that sends all the wrong signals. It turns out a lot of people read my usual pace--which can be way too fast at first--as anger or annoyance. When people focus on the words, it's obvious (by their own account) that I'm calm and enjoying the conversation. It's usually a cue to take a deep breath and slow down. But it's hard to remember to do that from the start, and not everyone is willing to let the tone go once I take that control. And then the deep breath becomes part of the imagined anger/annoyance. It's made me wary of voice and video chat, and wary of people who prefer it specifically because they want to use the way people look and speak to determine what's going on in their heads rather than pay attention to their words.

syndacks 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon