4 ms·

>.they were saying they were "agile", but would abandon it where it conflicted with actually getting work done. Abandoning your process to get stuff done is wi

by jboy55 5y ago

>.they were saying they were "agile", but would abandon it where it conflicted with actually getting work done. Abandoning your process to get stuff done is within the manifesto. However, what I don't ever get about Agile naysayers is any process that would fix their issues with the organizations they encounter. No sociopathic, micromanaging organization will ever enact a process that makes being sociopathic and micromanaging to their engineers harder. The problem is those organizations, not the processes or frameworks. It makes as much sense as me saying every company I've worked for that made us use Python had an asshole as the CTO. Therefore, python causes asshole CTOs.

g051051 5y ago
But why does it seem to be the case for every organization? Not just ones I personally worked for, but I get the same reports from peers all over the US, in very different businesses.
- jboy55 5y ago
  Its not. I have worked at a bunch. But let me repeat, it's not the process, its the managers that enact the process. Shitty management is everywhere, even within the same company, you can have some managers understand and push to build great software and never look at stats, where other managers just want commits per engineer to be higher. If you ask them, they will say they are being 'fair' and 'objective'. So, some managers are only interested in making sure engineers aren't slacking off, they'll measure any way they can. LOC, Commits, Story points, it doesn't matter what, they want the measure, they want to be able to put you on a pip if that metric goes too low.
  - g051051 5y ago
    > Its not. I have worked at a bunch. And yet consistently, everywhere I look, I see that "agile" simply doesn't work as described. Every article like this one treating "agile" as intrinsic truth is responded to by many who have seen first hand what a crock it is. The key observation for me is that, if you succeed with "agile", you would have succeeded as well or better without it. It's never why you were successful, but is often why projects fail. The best you can hope for is that it doesn't get in your way...hardly a ringing endorsement.
    - jboy55 5y ago
      > if you succeed with "agile", you would have succeeded as well or better without it. It's never why you were successful, but is often why projects fail. I would love to see some counter examples where companies succeeded writing business/application software using a well-defined process that wasn't 'Agile'. So please, let me know the counter example, what process is the alternative?
      - _y5hn 5y ago
        This is where the discussion turns silly, as agile/agility is not a process.
        jboy55 5y ago
        Ok, Scrum, Extreme, Rational Unified are some processes with a degree of Agility. What are the alternatives?
        _y5hn 5y ago
        Projects of course. They don't have to adhere to some theoretical waterfall process, and anecdotally never have. There's Kanban, and any informal process a group of cross-functional people may come up with. In fact, it's much more important to make something that works, than copying some task-list because it's said to have worked somewhere else. Incidentally, and this is going to shake up the "Agile" world going forward, is the missing piece, the link to management (budgets and trust really!) and innovation (the creative spark!). That should be less about process, and much more about culture and learning. That has remained elusive and underappreciated. Google Design Sprint may be the closest "process", though will still depend more on the mentioned above. With a great team, it anyway depends on the people. Though, the experience and output also depends on who you ask. Which is why great teams may get split up, for good reasons but also bad reasons at the same time. Though try put the most brilliant people together. They will annoy eachother into oblivion. So it's about the art of building diverse teams and mixing with what's mentioned above, because nothing thrives in a vacuum.

by jboy55 5y ago

g051051 5y ago

But why does it seem to be the case for every organization? Not just ones I personally worked for, but I get the same reports from peers all over the US, in very different businesses.

jboy55 5y ago
Its not. I have worked at a bunch. But let me repeat, it's not the process, its the managers that enact the process. Shitty management is everywhere, even within the same company, you can have some managers understand and push to build great software and never look at stats, where other managers just want commits per engineer to be higher. If you ask them, they will say they are being 'fair' and 'objective'. So, some managers are only interested in making sure engineers aren't slacking off, they'll measure any way they can. LOC, Commits, Story points, it doesn't matter what, they want the measure, they want to be able to put you on a pip if that metric goes too low.
- g051051 5y ago
  > Its not. I have worked at a bunch. And yet consistently, everywhere I look, I see that "agile" simply doesn't work as described. Every article like this one treating "agile" as intrinsic truth is responded to by many who have seen first hand what a crock it is. The key observation for me is that, if you succeed with "agile", you would have succeeded as well or better without it. It's never why you were successful, but is often why projects fail. The best you can hope for is that it doesn't get in your way...hardly a ringing endorsement.
  - jboy55 5y ago
    > if you succeed with "agile", you would have succeeded as well or better without it. It's never why you were successful, but is often why projects fail. I would love to see some counter examples where companies succeeded writing business/application software using a well-defined process that wasn't 'Agile'. So please, let me know the counter example, what process is the alternative?
    - _y5hn 5y ago
      This is where the discussion turns silly, as agile/agility is not a process.
      - jboy55 5y ago
        Ok, Scrum, Extreme, Rational Unified are some processes with a degree of Agility. What are the alternatives?
        _y5hn 5y ago
        Projects of course. They don't have to adhere to some theoretical waterfall process, and anecdotally never have. There's Kanban, and any informal process a group of cross-functional people may come up with. In fact, it's much more important to make something that works, than copying some task-list because it's said to have worked somewhere else. Incidentally, and this is going to shake up the "Agile" world going forward, is the missing piece, the link to management (budgets and trust really!) and innovation (the creative spark!). That should be less about process, and much more about culture and learning. That has remained elusive and underappreciated. Google Design Sprint may be the closest "process", though will still depend more on the mentioned above. With a great team, it anyway depends on the people. Though, the experience and output also depends on who you ask. Which is why great teams may get split up, for good reasons but also bad reasons at the same time. Though try put the most brilliant people together. They will annoy eachother into oblivion. So it's about the art of building diverse teams and mixing with what's mentioned above, because nothing thrives in a vacuum.