5 ms·

"Stopping power". "Wound channels". Movie frames featuring sainted action heroes, gun out-thrust. Now don't get me wrong, I own a gun. But still. Also, I hea

"Stopping power". "Wound channels". Movie frames featuring sainted action heroes, gun out-thrust. Now don't get me wrong, I own a gun. But still. Also, I hear that birdshot is actually better for home defense because it doesn't go through walls so much. And can you imagine firing a shotgun inside your house without hearing protection? Goodbye ears.

trutannus 5y ago
Former gun owner myself as well back when I lived in the sticks. Would carry on walks in my "yard" because of injured, hungry, or otherwise dangerous wildlife. > Movie frames featuring sainted action heroes, gun out-thrust. This is the sort of thing that gives firearm owners a bad rap. Especially those who advocate for self-defense rights. Everyone already thinks firearm owners are gung-ho cowboys with itchy trigger fingers. The majority are not.
- 0x7E3 5y ago
  > Movie frames featuring sainted action heroes, gun out-thrust. >This is the sort of thing that gives firearm owners a bad rap. You're not wrong, but I do think it's unfair and a little odd. After all software engineers are almost exclusively depicted as engaging in unethical and outright criminal activity in pop culture, regardless of whether they are the 'good guys' or 'bad guys'. Many beginning training materials focus on things that are implied if not outright trumpeted as giving you the ability to commit illegal and immoral acts. We certainly don't (well someone probably does, but we shouldn't) consider that as a reflection on all software engineers.
  - trutannus 5y ago
    > After all software engineers are almost exclusively depicted as engaging in unethical and outright criminal activity in pop culture Right, I agree for sure. I think the reason why we don't consider this a reflection on software engineers is that no politician has thought using freedom to engineer software as a wedge issue in a campaign. It's absolutely unfair and a little odd. But, after all, I've yet to see a political wedge issue arise that isn't unfair, and viewed as a little odd by other cultures.
ethbr0 5y ago
I mean, it's a bit difficult to compare and contrast various bullets without talking about stopping power and wound channels. You could use euphemisms or be more technical, but in the end you're comparing a thing made to transfer kinetic force and create a hole, on its ability to do those things. And yes IMHO, a pump action 12ga birdshot reduced-recoil load w/ a standard slug at the end of the magazine is hard to argue against if we're honestly talking home defense load.
- drewm1980 5y ago
  What's the slug for?
  - akerl_ 5y ago
    There’s a decent cargo cult following for some level of magazine/tube-based escalation of force, where you have some sort of lower-impact ammunition loaded first, followed by higher-impact ammunition. In this case, the pitch is for birdshot at the front, followed by a slug. The issue is that in practice, once you pull out a gun you’ve fundamentally altered the state of the world between yourself and your assailant, and they have no way to know that you’ve stacked your magazine/tube like some kind of Dragon Ball Z power escalation where you’ll take 5 episodes to get to your Full Ultimate Potential. In practice, you’re better off just making a choice between wanting lower or higher impact projectiles. Increasing complexity in a high-stress / fast-paced scenario isn’t a great plan.
    - drewm1980 5y ago
      What scenario are you expecting to happen, and how will your specific choice of shotgun rounds factor into that?
      - akerl_ 5y ago
        If I’m loading a shotgun for for home defense: somebody has broken into my home. As per my comment above, how I load my shotgun is mostly based around my willingness to inflict harm on somebody who has broken into my home. If I’m trying to limit impact, bird shot is lovely. If not, just load the whole tube with buck shot or slug or similar. But trying to pre-plan an escalation of force via the shotgun tube ordering is a fools errand. Police have an escalation of force via visibly different tools. A suspect can see the difference between a stick and a taser and a gun. And a cop can choose to draw any of these in any order. Stacking the tube locks you into a specific sequence that you have to remember and that your assailant can’t know.
collegeburner 5y ago
Do you have a problem with those terms? If it makes you feel better "stopping power" is at least half a meme these days, from all the old fudds talking about "muh stopping power" with their .45 1911s. And yeah a bullet makes a wound channel? This stuff is just as relevant of you're hunting or similar. And no, birdshot may not stop a big person. Hurt like hell but often won't kill. I personally don't have a shotgun for home defense though, 9mm hollow points in a PCC do the job fine. Anybody who's not an idiot wears ear protection when shooting but a few shots won't damage your ears much. But yeah a 9mm handgun is significantly less bad for these reasons. Thank the feds though, it's damn hard to get suppressors without tons of paperwork which would otherwise make this less of a problem.
- rsyring 5y ago
  > But yeah a 9mm handgun is significantly less bad for these reasons. 9mm handgun is usually louder than a shotgun: https://earinc.com/gunfire-noise-level-reference-chart/ https://earinc.com/gunfire-noise-level-reference-chart/ > Thank the feds though, it's damn hard to get suppressors without tons of paperwork which would otherwise make this less of a problem. Paperwork isn't that bad and online retailers help a lot. It's annoying, expensive, and you have to wait a long time after purchase to get it, but it's not really "hard" IMO.
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    Huh never seemed like that, go figure. Tbh i usually shoot 9mm from a PCC so that may have skewed my impression. I consider a shitload of paperwork, months of waiting, and the $200 tax stamp to be pretty bad. More importantly, navigating that paperwork is hard for somebody kinda new to guns, even though it's better these days esp. with the internet.
    - nataz 5y ago
      And just a quick safety note, a 9mm round can absolutely cause long term hearing damage with just one shot, especially if fired indoors and unsurprised. Lots of variables in play here, but the answer is to always wear hearing protection.

trutannus 5y ago

Former gun owner myself as well back when I lived in the sticks. Would carry on walks in my "yard" because of injured, hungry, or otherwise dangerous wildlife. > Movie frames featuring sainted action heroes, gun out-thrust. This is the sort of thing that gives firearm owners a bad rap. Especially those who advocate for self-defense rights. Everyone already thinks firearm owners are gung-ho cowboys with itchy trigger fingers. The majority are not.

0x7E3 5y ago
> Movie frames featuring sainted action heroes, gun out-thrust. >This is the sort of thing that gives firearm owners a bad rap. You're not wrong, but I do think it's unfair and a little odd. After all software engineers are almost exclusively depicted as engaging in unethical and outright criminal activity in pop culture, regardless of whether they are the 'good guys' or 'bad guys'. Many beginning training materials focus on things that are implied if not outright trumpeted as giving you the ability to commit illegal and immoral acts. We certainly don't (well someone probably does, but we shouldn't) consider that as a reflection on all software engineers.
- trutannus 5y ago
  > After all software engineers are almost exclusively depicted as engaging in unethical and outright criminal activity in pop culture Right, I agree for sure. I think the reason why we don't consider this a reflection on software engineers is that no politician has thought using freedom to engineer software as a wedge issue in a campaign. It's absolutely unfair and a little odd. But, after all, I've yet to see a political wedge issue arise that isn't unfair, and viewed as a little odd by other cultures.

ethbr0 5y ago

I mean, it's a bit difficult to compare and contrast various bullets without talking about stopping power and wound channels. You could use euphemisms or be more technical, but in the end you're comparing a thing made to transfer kinetic force and create a hole, on its ability to do those things. And yes IMHO, a pump action 12ga birdshot reduced-recoil load w/ a standard slug at the end of the magazine is hard to argue against if we're honestly talking home defense load.

drewm1980 5y ago
What's the slug for?
- akerl_ 5y ago
  There’s a decent cargo cult following for some level of magazine/tube-based escalation of force, where you have some sort of lower-impact ammunition loaded first, followed by higher-impact ammunition. In this case, the pitch is for birdshot at the front, followed by a slug. The issue is that in practice, once you pull out a gun you’ve fundamentally altered the state of the world between yourself and your assailant, and they have no way to know that you’ve stacked your magazine/tube like some kind of Dragon Ball Z power escalation where you’ll take 5 episodes to get to your Full Ultimate Potential. In practice, you’re better off just making a choice between wanting lower or higher impact projectiles. Increasing complexity in a high-stress / fast-paced scenario isn’t a great plan.
  - drewm1980 5y ago
    What scenario are you expecting to happen, and how will your specific choice of shotgun rounds factor into that?
    - akerl_ 5y ago
      If I’m loading a shotgun for for home defense: somebody has broken into my home. As per my comment above, how I load my shotgun is mostly based around my willingness to inflict harm on somebody who has broken into my home. If I’m trying to limit impact, bird shot is lovely. If not, just load the whole tube with buck shot or slug or similar. But trying to pre-plan an escalation of force via the shotgun tube ordering is a fools errand. Police have an escalation of force via visibly different tools. A suspect can see the difference between a stick and a taser and a gun. And a cop can choose to draw any of these in any order. Stacking the tube locks you into a specific sequence that you have to remember and that your assailant can’t know.

collegeburner 5y ago

Do you have a problem with those terms? If it makes you feel better "stopping power" is at least half a meme these days, from all the old fudds talking about "muh stopping power" with their .45 1911s. And yeah a bullet makes a wound channel? This stuff is just as relevant of you're hunting or similar. And no, birdshot may not stop a big person. Hurt like hell but often won't kill. I personally don't have a shotgun for home defense though, 9mm hollow points in a PCC do the job fine. Anybody who's not an idiot wears ear protection when shooting but a few shots won't damage your ears much. But yeah a 9mm handgun is significantly less bad for these reasons. Thank the feds though, it's damn hard to get suppressors without tons of paperwork which would otherwise make this less of a problem.

rsyring 5y ago
> But yeah a 9mm handgun is significantly less bad for these reasons. 9mm handgun is usually louder than a shotgun: https://earinc.com/gunfire-noise-level-reference-chart/ https://earinc.com/gunfire-noise-level-reference-chart/ > Thank the feds though, it's damn hard to get suppressors without tons of paperwork which would otherwise make this less of a problem. Paperwork isn't that bad and online retailers help a lot. It's annoying, expensive, and you have to wait a long time after purchase to get it, but it's not really "hard" IMO.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  Huh never seemed like that, go figure. Tbh i usually shoot 9mm from a PCC so that may have skewed my impression. I consider a shitload of paperwork, months of waiting, and the $200 tax stamp to be pretty bad. More importantly, navigating that paperwork is hard for somebody kinda new to guns, even though it's better these days esp. with the internet.
  - nataz 5y ago
    And just a quick safety note, a 9mm round can absolutely cause long term hearing damage with just one shot, especially if fired indoors and unsurprised. Lots of variables in play here, but the answer is to always wear hearing protection.