8 ms·

It would seem to be the rational thing for NSO to hack a journalist who is writing on them, so that they better prepare for what’s coming. As for all the countr

It would seem to be the rational thing for NSO to hack a journalist who is writing on them, so that they better prepare for what’s coming. As for all the countries that buy and use NSO, to target and kill journalists, they are all close all allies of the US and Israel. And the US and England were also spying on the journalist Julian Assange, and have kept him in prison and tortured him for over a decade. Ben Hubbard luckily just got hacked.

chinathrow 5y ago
Rational? Maybe. Ethical? No. Legitimate? Hell no.
- nix23 5y ago
  Fun fact, the CIA had/has a rule not to impersonate priests etc, journalist or personnel of NGO's in undercover missions (because they have a hard life in some country's already). But then there is that excellent movie Spy Game....
  - nuclearnice1 5y ago
    The CIA reportedly used the “Save the Children” charity as a front for a fake hepatitis B vaccination program in Pakistan to help confirm Bin Laden’s location. A ban on the polio vaccination program in some Taliban territory and attacks on vaccine workers followed.
    - nix23 5y ago
      Hint to Spy Game where Brad Pitt plays a Journalist as an active CIA agent was no mistake.
      - nuclearnice1 5y ago
        I’ll look for it on streaming.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    Sadly, they didn't have any such rule about impersonating healthcare workers or weapons inspectors, making vaccine outreach an extremely dangerous occupation for charities and making treaties that rely on inspections extremely difficult.
  - 1cvmask 5y ago
    In fact the CIA uses all the above you mentioned ranging from priests, charities, NGOS, humanitarian outfits, journalists and the media as fronts and covers for their spying. It is documented multiple times over decades. The CIA even has it's own official NGO called the National Endowment for Democracy. My favorite is the US AID CIA spy who goes into Afghanistan in the 1980s that is profiled in Charlie Wilson's war. Or the fake vaccination program they conducted with "humanitarian" NGOs and charities: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-cia-fake-vaccination-campaign-endangers-us-all/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-cia-fake-vacc... My favorite CIA journalists are the ones who worked for CBS and other publications and were involved in promoting Modern Art around the world with NGOs like MoMA, the Rockefeller and Ford Foundations: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/artcurious-cia-art-excerpt-1909623 https://news.artnet.com/art-world/artcurious-cia-art-excerpt... https://daily.jstor.org/was-modern-art-really-a-cia-psy-op/ https://daily.jstor.org/was-modern-art-really-a-cia-psy-op/ https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20161004-was-modern-art-a-weapon-of-the-cia https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20161004-was-modern-art-... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-... https://www.amazon.com/Cultural-Cold-War-World-Letters/dp/1565846648 https://www.amazon.com/Cultural-Cold-War-World-Letters/dp/15... https://www.amazon.com/ArtCurious-Unexpected-Slightly-Strangely-Wonderful/dp/0143134590 https://www.amazon.com/ArtCurious-Unexpected-Slightly-Strang... There is a humorous scene in Men In Black where they refer to Andy Warhol as a CIA spy.
midasuni 5y ago
He was arrested in 2019 so your “over a decade” claim is demonstrably wrong. Could you point to amnesty international claiming belmarsh is torture?
- mjsir911 5y ago
  I mean, it's not amnesty international, but a UN Special Rapporteur on Torture claimed: "Mr. Assange has been deliberately exposed, for a period of several years, to progressively severe forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, the cumulative effects of which can only be described as psychological torture." https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=24665 https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...
- stareatgoats 5y ago
  His confinement to the Embassy of Equador since 2010 amply qualify as both imprisonment and torture [0]. If you like to argue that it does not literally qualify then I suggest you don't in the interest of not wasting everybody's time. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48473898 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48473898
  - allemagne 5y ago
    Are we not ignoring the fact that any internet argument regarding Julian Assange where we can seemingly only deal in maximalist, black-and-white terms is also tantamount to torture?
  - Angostura 5y ago
    I'll take that argument on - he was charged by the Swedish Prosecution Authority, extradition was agreed by the UK authorities and he sought sanctuary in the Ecudorian embassy which granted him sanctury. So which of these imprisoned him? Presumably not Ecuador. The UK for agreeing to extradict him? Sweden? Similarly - what who was the perpetrator of the torture? Ecuador for not offering sufficiently spacious accomodation in the embassy?
    - 5y ago
simlevesque 5y ago
So, any end justifies every means ?
- geofft 5y ago
  I don't think the comment you're replying to is talking about justification or justice, just rationality. If I say "Your bike lock doesn't have to be unbreakable, it just has to be strong enough that a rational thief will look for another target," that doesn't mean I think the thief is justified in stealing other people's bikes instead of yours.
  - billiam 5y ago
    There is no point to saying it is rational for NSO (or the Saudis) to act this way. It was quite rational for MBS to order his minions to lure Khashoggi to the embassy and cut him into pieces. It brings nothing to the discussion of just how this company and its clients continue to ignore laws and decency.
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      > It brings nothing to the discussion of just how this company and its clients continue to ignore laws and decency. This is not worth discussing, it's a factual observation. Are we supposed to compete for who can make the most indignant face?
wolverine876 5y ago
> the US and England were also spying on the journalist Julian Assange, and have kept him in prison and tortured him for over a decade. Ben Hubbard luckily just got hacked. As you probably know, these assertions are a big stretch for many people. Not everyone considers Assange a journalist. He was living in an embassy for most of those years, so while he was confined, it's not a prison and not torture. Hubbard isn't lucky; neither the US or UK have ever imprisoned and tortured a journalist from a major publication (unless I'm overlooking someone). There may be legitimate debate about Assange, but it's not credible to pretend that these are facts.
- sumedh 5y ago
  > so while he was confined, it's not a prison and not torture Did he have freedom to leave the embassy and go somewhere else, if not then it is a form of torture. CIA also considered killing him. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/sep/27/senior-cia-officials-trump-discussed-assassinating-julian-assange https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/sep/27/senior-cia-off...
- Ansil849 5y ago
  > neither the US or UK have ever imprisoned and tortured a journalist from a major publication (unless I'm overlooking someone). This was in the news just last month: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/soldiers-burst-in-the-back-door-to-torture-me-with-electric-shocks-sg0h8tjjd https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/soldiers-burst-in-the-bac... > A Belfast-born writer who has been a consistent critic of IRA violence has revealed how the British Army subjected him to electric shock torture outside his family home in the early years of the Northern Ireland conflict. > Journalist turned novelist Malachi O’Doherty describes in a new memoir how soldiers first threatened to shoot him, then dragged him through a hedge, kicked him and eventually resorted to inflicting electric shocks to try to extract information about the local IRA.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Thanks, great point. I think there's a distinction between peaceful open society - they wouldn't do it to a Guardian or Times journalist today in London - and a military occupation (Northern Ireland), but I'm not sure it's such a bright line: The government created that occupation (whatever its merits, I'm not debating them here) and could create another.
gerdesj 5y ago
"And the US and England" When you are doing the information from the inside thing, you do need to get your players in line. England? I'm English ... and Welsh, Cornish, Scottish and tangentially Irish, not to mention German (check my username). The country is called Britain, the Great thing is only to distinguish from the other Britain - Brittany (part of France). You might as well call everyone from the USA as Texans. Julian Assange spent rather a long time here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4992504,-0.1614713,3a,75y,178.37h,114.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7WJ4m6tu9jn1vC6pEQfGQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4992504,-0.1614713,3a,75y,... He was not tortured in the embassy - he was a guest who gradually outstayed his welcome. He was always treated well. As you can see Harrods is just to the right. This is not the roughest place to be a prisoner in Christendom. Whilst he was in there, there were always several Police stationed nearby. They stood in doorways and kept watch. Probably a boring job but nice and simple. The whole thing basically costed the UK tax payer a fair old wodge and obviously Ecuador too. I know that area and what goes on because I run internets for some flats nearby.
- cyberpunk 5y ago
  > I'm English ... and Welsh, Cornish, Scottish and tangentially Irish, not to mention German (check my username). Sorry, but this is absolutely nonsensical to me, how can you be all these nationalities? Were you born on the most insane round trip flight ever or what? Edit: And sorry, as a Scot (One actually born there); 'the country' is not called 'Great Britain'. As a nationality we group identify as both $member-country and also British/members of the United Kingdom. The UK itself, is made up of four separate countries, Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Great Britain is simply our name for 'the big island (and all the little ones) excluding ireland', the UK is the big island + NI. Holy cow where did you learn such nonsense? :/
  - gerdesj 5y ago
    My (properly) researched family tree is 15 generations deep for me personally, so far. My uncle has done quite a lot of research. Quite a lot. At the extreme 15 gens down, you get this in your Ahnentafel: "26921. Alice15 John (14829). Her married name was Trelowarth (14829). She was born circa 1550. She married Robert Trelowarth (14828) on 3 Oct 1574 at Wendron, Cornwall, UK. She died circa 1603 at Wendron, Cornwall, UK."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

chinathrow 5y ago

Rational? Maybe. Ethical? No. Legitimate? Hell no.

nix23 5y ago
Fun fact, the CIA had/has a rule not to impersonate priests etc, journalist or personnel of NGO's in undercover missions (because they have a hard life in some country's already). But then there is that excellent movie Spy Game....
- nuclearnice1 5y ago
  The CIA reportedly used the “Save the Children” charity as a front for a fake hepatitis B vaccination program in Pakistan to help confirm Bin Laden’s location. A ban on the polio vaccination program in some Taliban territory and attacks on vaccine workers followed.
  - nix23 5y ago
    Hint to Spy Game where Brad Pitt plays a Journalist as an active CIA agent was no mistake.
    - nuclearnice1 5y ago
      I’ll look for it on streaming.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Sadly, they didn't have any such rule about impersonating healthcare workers or weapons inspectors, making vaccine outreach an extremely dangerous occupation for charities and making treaties that rely on inspections extremely difficult.
- 1cvmask 5y ago
  In fact the CIA uses all the above you mentioned ranging from priests, charities, NGOS, humanitarian outfits, journalists and the media as fronts and covers for their spying. It is documented multiple times over decades. The CIA even has it's own official NGO called the National Endowment for Democracy. My favorite is the US AID CIA spy who goes into Afghanistan in the 1980s that is profiled in Charlie Wilson's war. Or the fake vaccination program they conducted with "humanitarian" NGOs and charities: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-cia-fake-vaccination-campaign-endangers-us-all/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-cia-fake-vacc... My favorite CIA journalists are the ones who worked for CBS and other publications and were involved in promoting Modern Art around the world with NGOs like MoMA, the Rockefeller and Ford Foundations: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/artcurious-cia-art-excerpt-1909623 https://news.artnet.com/art-world/artcurious-cia-art-excerpt... https://daily.jstor.org/was-modern-art-really-a-cia-psy-op/ https://daily.jstor.org/was-modern-art-really-a-cia-psy-op/ https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20161004-was-modern-art-a-weapon-of-the-cia https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20161004-was-modern-art-... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-... https://www.amazon.com/Cultural-Cold-War-World-Letters/dp/1565846648 https://www.amazon.com/Cultural-Cold-War-World-Letters/dp/15... https://www.amazon.com/ArtCurious-Unexpected-Slightly-Strangely-Wonderful/dp/0143134590 https://www.amazon.com/ArtCurious-Unexpected-Slightly-Strang... There is a humorous scene in Men In Black where they refer to Andy Warhol as a CIA spy.

midasuni 5y ago

He was arrested in 2019 so your “over a decade” claim is demonstrably wrong. Could you point to amnesty international claiming belmarsh is torture?

mjsir911 5y ago
I mean, it's not amnesty international, but a UN Special Rapporteur on Torture claimed: "Mr. Assange has been deliberately exposed, for a period of several years, to progressively severe forms of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, the cumulative effects of which can only be described as psychological torture." https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=24665 https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...
stareatgoats 5y ago
His confinement to the Embassy of Equador since 2010 amply qualify as both imprisonment and torture [0]. If you like to argue that it does not literally qualify then I suggest you don't in the interest of not wasting everybody's time. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48473898 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48473898
- allemagne 5y ago
  Are we not ignoring the fact that any internet argument regarding Julian Assange where we can seemingly only deal in maximalist, black-and-white terms is also tantamount to torture?
- Angostura 5y ago
  I'll take that argument on - he was charged by the Swedish Prosecution Authority, extradition was agreed by the UK authorities and he sought sanctuary in the Ecudorian embassy which granted him sanctury. So which of these imprisoned him? Presumably not Ecuador. The UK for agreeing to extradict him? Sweden? Similarly - what who was the perpetrator of the torture? Ecuador for not offering sufficiently spacious accomodation in the embassy?
  - 5y ago

simlevesque 5y ago

So, any end justifies every means ?

geofft 5y ago
I don't think the comment you're replying to is talking about justification or justice, just rationality. If I say "Your bike lock doesn't have to be unbreakable, it just has to be strong enough that a rational thief will look for another target," that doesn't mean I think the thief is justified in stealing other people's bikes instead of yours.
- billiam 5y ago
  There is no point to saying it is rational for NSO (or the Saudis) to act this way. It was quite rational for MBS to order his minions to lure Khashoggi to the embassy and cut him into pieces. It brings nothing to the discussion of just how this company and its clients continue to ignore laws and decency.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    > It brings nothing to the discussion of just how this company and its clients continue to ignore laws and decency. This is not worth discussing, it's a factual observation. Are we supposed to compete for who can make the most indignant face?

wolverine876 5y ago

> the US and England were also spying on the journalist Julian Assange, and have kept him in prison and tortured him for over a decade. Ben Hubbard luckily just got hacked. As you probably know, these assertions are a big stretch for many people. Not everyone considers Assange a journalist. He was living in an embassy for most of those years, so while he was confined, it's not a prison and not torture. Hubbard isn't lucky; neither the US or UK have ever imprisoned and tortured a journalist from a major publication (unless I'm overlooking someone). There may be legitimate debate about Assange, but it's not credible to pretend that these are facts.

sumedh 5y ago
> so while he was confined, it's not a prison and not torture Did he have freedom to leave the embassy and go somewhere else, if not then it is a form of torture. CIA also considered killing him. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/sep/27/senior-cia-officials-trump-discussed-assassinating-julian-assange https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/sep/27/senior-cia-off...
Ansil849 5y ago
> neither the US or UK have ever imprisoned and tortured a journalist from a major publication (unless I'm overlooking someone). This was in the news just last month: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/soldiers-burst-in-the-back-door-to-torture-me-with-electric-shocks-sg0h8tjjd https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/soldiers-burst-in-the-bac... > A Belfast-born writer who has been a consistent critic of IRA violence has revealed how the British Army subjected him to electric shock torture outside his family home in the early years of the Northern Ireland conflict. > Journalist turned novelist Malachi O’Doherty describes in a new memoir how soldiers first threatened to shoot him, then dragged him through a hedge, kicked him and eventually resorted to inflicting electric shocks to try to extract information about the local IRA.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Thanks, great point. I think there's a distinction between peaceful open society - they wouldn't do it to a Guardian or Times journalist today in London - and a military occupation (Northern Ireland), but I'm not sure it's such a bright line: The government created that occupation (whatever its merits, I'm not debating them here) and could create another.

gerdesj 5y ago

"And the US and England" When you are doing the information from the inside thing, you do need to get your players in line. England? I'm English ... and Welsh, Cornish, Scottish and tangentially Irish, not to mention German (check my username). The country is called Britain, the Great thing is only to distinguish from the other Britain - Brittany (part of France). You might as well call everyone from the USA as Texans. Julian Assange spent rather a long time here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4992504,-0.1614713,3a,75y,178.37h,114.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7WJ4m6tu9jn1vC6pEQfGQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4992504,-0.1614713,3a,75y,... He was not tortured in the embassy - he was a guest who gradually outstayed his welcome. He was always treated well. As you can see Harrods is just to the right. This is not the roughest place to be a prisoner in Christendom. Whilst he was in there, there were always several Police stationed nearby. They stood in doorways and kept watch. Probably a boring job but nice and simple. The whole thing basically costed the UK tax payer a fair old wodge and obviously Ecuador too. I know that area and what goes on because I run internets for some flats nearby.

cyberpunk 5y ago
> I'm English ... and Welsh, Cornish, Scottish and tangentially Irish, not to mention German (check my username). Sorry, but this is absolutely nonsensical to me, how can you be all these nationalities? Were you born on the most insane round trip flight ever or what? Edit: And sorry, as a Scot (One actually born there); 'the country' is not called 'Great Britain'. As a nationality we group identify as both $member-country and also British/members of the United Kingdom. The UK itself, is made up of four separate countries, Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Great Britain is simply our name for 'the big island (and all the little ones) excluding ireland', the UK is the big island + NI. Holy cow where did you learn such nonsense? :/
- gerdesj 5y ago
  My (properly) researched family tree is 15 generations deep for me personally, so far. My uncle has done quite a lot of research. Quite a lot. At the extreme 15 gens down, you get this in your Ahnentafel: "26921. Alice15 John (14829). Her married name was Trelowarth (14829). She was born circa 1550. She married Robert Trelowarth (14828) on 3 Oct 1574 at Wendron, Cornwall, UK. She died circa 1603 at Wendron, Cornwall, UK."

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]