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Scala is fine. People understood it's not really worth it as a "better Java". Companies that choose Scala in 2021 are using either big data frameworks (where Py

Scala is fine. People understood it's not really worth it as a "better Java". Companies that choose Scala in 2021 are using either big data frameworks (where Python bindings are the most common alternative to Scala, not Java), or functional ecosystems (Typelevel, Zio). Scala 3 has taken an interesting direction and to me it seems that Odersky wants to win Python developers over rather than Java shops using Spring. New features in Java and the JVM (records, loom, valhalla, ...) are directly going to benefit Scala and make it even better. On the contrary, Kotlin's essence has always been threatened by the fact it's nothing more than a better Java. I assume there's still a big demand for that on Android, but if you're running on a recent JVM, I would certainly consider Java over Kotlin.

tunesmith 5y ago
Which is a bummer for folks that loves the cleanliness and power of "basic Scala" (pure functions, immutability) without wanting to get into deep FP theory (typelevel, zio). That has been a really nice pocket to be in for teams that have the discipline to not get clever with it. Same with teams wanting to integrate with Akka on scala.
- Zababa 5y ago
  I think between Scala 3 and the Li Hayoi ecosystem, there is a path to simplicity. But that usually means you lose part of the appeal of the language, since you can't use some parts of the ecosystem.
- hocuspocus 5y ago
  Zio is pretty much what you want. No need to understand category theory, no over-reliance on implicit resolution, ... That said you don't need to understand that much to use high-level libraries in the Typelevel ecosystem. And when I do need to reach for low-level constructs, I find nice that everything is built upon clean and composable abstractions. You mention Akka, it's kind of its own beast. The inner workings go definitely way beyond "better Java", yet Lightbend needs to provide a surface API that plays nice with Java interop. It's not an ecosystem easy to navigate in my opinion.
zorr 5y ago
Kotlin started out as a better Java but it's more than that now. With Kotlin multiplatform you can compile to JVM, Javascript and Native from the same repository. Java has been catching up on language features but I'm not sure if I'm ready to switch back to Java for Spring projects yet. Mostly because of nullability, extension methods and coroutines in Kotlin.
- kaba0 5y ago
  Targeting all those platforms will result in Kotlin falling in-between all of them. It will not be truly close the the JVM primitives, or the native ones or both in the end and will suffer from platform-specific quirks. Especially with the heavy, under-the-hood developments of the JVM, like Loom and Valhalla.
- hocuspocus 5y ago
  Targeting multiple platforms is orthogonal to the core language design goal, which has always been to be more like C# on the JVM, with 100% Java interop and no need for a big standard library. I give you nullability, however extension methods without proper typeclasses is just syntactic sugar, and coroutines will be superseded by Loom. Java hasn't only been catching up, it now supports pattern matching which Kotlin still lacks.
hota_mazi 5y ago
Interestingly, I have the exact opposite opinion. Scala has been declining steadily for a decade now, and Scala 3 is going to precipitate this state of affairs by splitting the shrinking community even further. Kotlin, on the other hand, has done nothing but grow for the past five years, no doubt helped by Google's formidable support for it. I just took a quick look at one of its Slack channels, "getting-started", and it has over 38,000 people on it. And that's just one channel among dozens more. I don't think Java's latest additions are anywhere near threatening Kotlin's rise to dominance since Java is moving at a very slow pace, by design, while Kotlin supports some features and design directions that will never happen in Java.
- jmfldn 5y ago
  It's not in decline imho, it has settled as middle ranking language in terms of popularity and is v popular in its niche. It depends where you are of course but in London it's used in loads of places from major corporations to startups. The market is hot.
  - frant-hartm 5y ago
    I used to contract in London, I still occasionally get info about contracts from recruiters, Kotlin largely replaced Scala, compared to 5 years ago.
    - jmfldn 5y ago
      Kotlin is growing for sure on the server side. Far from replacing it though.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Dominant outside Android? Keep dreaming, where is the KVM implementation by JetBrains? Yeah right they had to reboot it.
  - RhodesianHunter 5y ago
    Kotlin is in frequent use on the backend in many places, including Amazon and Google.

tunesmith 5y ago

Which is a bummer for folks that loves the cleanliness and power of "basic Scala" (pure functions, immutability) without wanting to get into deep FP theory (typelevel, zio). That has been a really nice pocket to be in for teams that have the discipline to not get clever with it. Same with teams wanting to integrate with Akka on scala.

Zababa 5y ago
I think between Scala 3 and the Li Hayoi ecosystem, there is a path to simplicity. But that usually means you lose part of the appeal of the language, since you can't use some parts of the ecosystem.
hocuspocus 5y ago
Zio is pretty much what you want. No need to understand category theory, no over-reliance on implicit resolution, ... That said you don't need to understand that much to use high-level libraries in the Typelevel ecosystem. And when I do need to reach for low-level constructs, I find nice that everything is built upon clean and composable abstractions. You mention Akka, it's kind of its own beast. The inner workings go definitely way beyond "better Java", yet Lightbend needs to provide a surface API that plays nice with Java interop. It's not an ecosystem easy to navigate in my opinion.

zorr 5y ago

Kotlin started out as a better Java but it's more than that now. With Kotlin multiplatform you can compile to JVM, Javascript and Native from the same repository. Java has been catching up on language features but I'm not sure if I'm ready to switch back to Java for Spring projects yet. Mostly because of nullability, extension methods and coroutines in Kotlin.

kaba0 5y ago
Targeting all those platforms will result in Kotlin falling in-between all of them. It will not be truly close the the JVM primitives, or the native ones or both in the end and will suffer from platform-specific quirks. Especially with the heavy, under-the-hood developments of the JVM, like Loom and Valhalla.
hocuspocus 5y ago
Targeting multiple platforms is orthogonal to the core language design goal, which has always been to be more like C# on the JVM, with 100% Java interop and no need for a big standard library. I give you nullability, however extension methods without proper typeclasses is just syntactic sugar, and coroutines will be superseded by Loom. Java hasn't only been catching up, it now supports pattern matching which Kotlin still lacks.

hota_mazi 5y ago

Interestingly, I have the exact opposite opinion. Scala has been declining steadily for a decade now, and Scala 3 is going to precipitate this state of affairs by splitting the shrinking community even further. Kotlin, on the other hand, has done nothing but grow for the past five years, no doubt helped by Google's formidable support for it. I just took a quick look at one of its Slack channels, "getting-started", and it has over 38,000 people on it. And that's just one channel among dozens more. I don't think Java's latest additions are anywhere near threatening Kotlin's rise to dominance since Java is moving at a very slow pace, by design, while Kotlin supports some features and design directions that will never happen in Java.

jmfldn 5y ago
It's not in decline imho, it has settled as middle ranking language in terms of popularity and is v popular in its niche. It depends where you are of course but in London it's used in loads of places from major corporations to startups. The market is hot.
- frant-hartm 5y ago
  I used to contract in London, I still occasionally get info about contracts from recruiters, Kotlin largely replaced Scala, compared to 5 years ago.
  - jmfldn 5y ago
    Kotlin is growing for sure on the server side. Far from replacing it though.
pjmlp 5y ago
Dominant outside Android? Keep dreaming, where is the KVM implementation by JetBrains? Yeah right they had to reboot it.
- RhodesianHunter 5y ago
  Kotlin is in frequent use on the backend in many places, including Amazon and Google.