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I'm having trouble understanding a use-case for this. The point appears to be to use it if you are in a situation where for example your abusive partner is nex

I'm having trouble understanding a use-case for this. The point appears to be to use it if you are in a situation where for example your abusive partner is next to you, for example on a video call, and you want to signal on this call (as opposed to on a separate call when your abusive partner is not next to you?) that you need help. This then relies on 1) the people on the other end of the video call recognizing the signal, but also 2) your abuser not recognizing it. This seems extremely unlikely. Am I missing something about its utility?

softwaredoug 5y ago
Controlling abusers police how their victims interact with the outside world. So being watched or listened it to on a call is not out of the question. Also consider that revealing the abuse can be life threatening to the victim. How certain can you really be you’re not being overheard? And is even a 1% chance worth your life?
- Ansil849 5y ago
  Yes, I understand this. What I don't understand is the expectation that I outlined above: wherein the abuser does not understand or notice the gesture, but the people on the other end of the line do both notice and understand the gesture. This seems _very_ unlikely, and if the abuser _does_ notice and understand the symbol, will only put the person being abused in more danger. So again, I don't understand the utility of this. As you said: > And is even a 1% chance worth your life? Is the 1% chance that the abuser sees and understands the symbol worth your life?
  - jader201 5y ago
    I think the video call example is a bad example. Someone above linked to a video on Reddit that, I think, shows more likely scenarios where it could be used effectively (though, as stated in other comments, relies on the others knowing the context of the gesture): https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_message_is_the_same_in_all_languages_signal/ https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_m... Edit: reading some of the comments in the Reddit thread, as the article states, this was started in Canada during the COVID lockdown, so the likely scenario there is that you may give the signal out during work/while video chatting with a friend/relative while the abuser is unobservant but within hearing distance. To your point, this still seems unlikely, but if someone is in an abusive relationship but is still working during lockdowns, I suppose it’s still one way to signal for help.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      > you may give the signal out during work/while video chatting with a friend/relative while the abuser is unobservant but within hearing distance. It just seems like an extremely dangerous thing to do. If someone sees you doing some weird gesture with your hands, their first impulse may just be to blurt out "what are you doing with your hands?", which would in this case draw the abuser's attention. It seems way more straightforward to type out in that scenario explicitly that you are in danger.
      - formerly_proven 5y ago
        Chat might be persistent and checked later, video calls are not usually recorded.
      - skytreader 5y ago
        There's a lot of inconspicuous ways to signal this. Disguise it as some nonsense. It's no different from the less serious appellations to "blink thrice if you need help". Some I just came up with: (a) you can disguise the action as making a fist then said fist goes on to rub your nose, for instance. (b) your chin can rest on the back of your hand in position (1). Then it occasionally switches to (2). You can keep doing this while pretending to be listening thoroughly, like it's some unconscious gesture. (c) you can do this gesture two or three times in a row disguised as a hello or goodbye wave. The important observation here is, even if your abuser recognizes what you are doing, they are unlikely to prevent you from doing this immediately. Otherwise if they do then it's just explicit confirmation that you are indeed being abused. That situation is no good for them, if they are trying to hide the fact. The second point is that you maintain plausible deniability even if your abuser recognizes the sign. Of course it's not foolproof but it's easier to sell this as casual gestures as opposed to explicitly telling the video chat of your situation. If your abuser confronts you about it (if they even catch you doing it), it's easier to defuse the situation and less likely to end up in another altercation.
tyingq 5y ago
It's rare, but it does happen. This story is pretty interesting: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/27/us/florida-woman-escape-note-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/27/us/florida-woman-escape-note-...
- Ansil849 5y ago
  This is a story about someone slipping a note. It's a far cry from "someone doing a specialized hand symbol that someone intended noticed, while someone unintended did not notice". Or in other words, the amount of people who are literate and capable of reading a note in legible plain script is orders of magnitude greater than the amount of people who know this hand signal.
  - tyingq 5y ago
    Yes, I'm also skeptical of the hand gesture being useful, since few will recognize it. Just noting that the situation (needing to signal you're in distress, while with the partner) does happen.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      > since few will recognize it. This is I think precisely why this signal is a non-starter. For it to be successful, it seems to require that a large percentage of people are able to recognize it. But if a large percentage of people can recognize it, that logically means the abuser is more likely to recognize it as well.
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
Presumably an abuser listening and occasionally but not constantly watching.

softwaredoug 5y ago

Controlling abusers police how their victims interact with the outside world. So being watched or listened it to on a call is not out of the question. Also consider that revealing the abuse can be life threatening to the victim. How certain can you really be you’re not being overheard? And is even a 1% chance worth your life?

Ansil849 5y ago
Yes, I understand this. What I don't understand is the expectation that I outlined above: wherein the abuser does not understand or notice the gesture, but the people on the other end of the line do both notice and understand the gesture. This seems _very_ unlikely, and if the abuser _does_ notice and understand the symbol, will only put the person being abused in more danger. So again, I don't understand the utility of this. As you said: > And is even a 1% chance worth your life? Is the 1% chance that the abuser sees and understands the symbol worth your life?
- jader201 5y ago
  I think the video call example is a bad example. Someone above linked to a video on Reddit that, I think, shows more likely scenarios where it could be used effectively (though, as stated in other comments, relies on the others knowing the context of the gesture): https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_message_is_the_same_in_all_languages_signal/ https://reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/qeq0fq/the_m... Edit: reading some of the comments in the Reddit thread, as the article states, this was started in Canada during the COVID lockdown, so the likely scenario there is that you may give the signal out during work/while video chatting with a friend/relative while the abuser is unobservant but within hearing distance. To your point, this still seems unlikely, but if someone is in an abusive relationship but is still working during lockdowns, I suppose it’s still one way to signal for help.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    > you may give the signal out during work/while video chatting with a friend/relative while the abuser is unobservant but within hearing distance. It just seems like an extremely dangerous thing to do. If someone sees you doing some weird gesture with your hands, their first impulse may just be to blurt out "what are you doing with your hands?", which would in this case draw the abuser's attention. It seems way more straightforward to type out in that scenario explicitly that you are in danger.
    - formerly_proven 5y ago
      Chat might be persistent and checked later, video calls are not usually recorded.
    - skytreader 5y ago
      There's a lot of inconspicuous ways to signal this. Disguise it as some nonsense. It's no different from the less serious appellations to "blink thrice if you need help". Some I just came up with: (a) you can disguise the action as making a fist then said fist goes on to rub your nose, for instance. (b) your chin can rest on the back of your hand in position (1). Then it occasionally switches to (2). You can keep doing this while pretending to be listening thoroughly, like it's some unconscious gesture. (c) you can do this gesture two or three times in a row disguised as a hello or goodbye wave. The important observation here is, even if your abuser recognizes what you are doing, they are unlikely to prevent you from doing this immediately. Otherwise if they do then it's just explicit confirmation that you are indeed being abused. That situation is no good for them, if they are trying to hide the fact. The second point is that you maintain plausible deniability even if your abuser recognizes the sign. Of course it's not foolproof but it's easier to sell this as casual gestures as opposed to explicitly telling the video chat of your situation. If your abuser confronts you about it (if they even catch you doing it), it's easier to defuse the situation and less likely to end up in another altercation.

tyingq 5y ago

It's rare, but it does happen. This story is pretty interesting: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/27/us/florida-woman-escape-note-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/27/us/florida-woman-escape-note-...

Ansil849 5y ago
This is a story about someone slipping a note. It's a far cry from "someone doing a specialized hand symbol that someone intended noticed, while someone unintended did not notice". Or in other words, the amount of people who are literate and capable of reading a note in legible plain script is orders of magnitude greater than the amount of people who know this hand signal.
- tyingq 5y ago
  Yes, I'm also skeptical of the hand gesture being useful, since few will recognize it. Just noting that the situation (needing to signal you're in distress, while with the partner) does happen.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    > since few will recognize it. This is I think precisely why this signal is a non-starter. For it to be successful, it seems to require that a large percentage of people are able to recognize it. But if a large percentage of people can recognize it, that logically means the abuser is more likely to recognize it as well.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

Presumably an abuser listening and occasionally but not constantly watching.