3 ms·

Curing serious disease? That’s rich.

dralley 5y ago
What do you mean? Smallpox is extinct, diptheria, pertussus and polio are nearly extinct, and measles mumps and rubella would be nearly extinct if not for pockets of antivaxers creating a constant stream of outbreaks. Go look up how many diseases these people killed prior to the vaccines, and then a few years after. You are absolutely taking for granted what we've accomplished through the use of vaccines.
- silver-arrow 5y ago
  I agree but those were scientists from the past that practiced real science. Meaning they accepted counter arguments and evidence; not just dictate. They also discovered through the scientific method that you can not vaccinate for corona viruses They also were acutely aware you should never mass vaccinate during a pandemic. They were correct and that is why you see the results in Israel, Singapore, England, and now the US, that you are seeing. That these are bad therapeutics at best. They could end up being worse. The scientist and doctors who accomplished what you enumerated are indeed out there, but their voices are being suppressed by bureaucrats that now represent crony corrupt science; like fauci.
  - tzs 5y ago
    The Israel data shows excellent effectiveness of vaccines. For every age group it shows that the chances of severe COVID are greatly lower in the vaccinated than they are in the unvaccinated. If you just look at the totals for their whole population it may not look that way because you run into a Simpson's paradox situation. That's because older people are both more likely in general to have their COVID cases be severe, and older people in Israel or more likely to be vaccinated. To illustrate, imagine a population that has 2000 young people and 2000 old people, and both groups are 50% vaccinated with a vaccine that reduces your chances of severe disease by 90%, and image we are dealing with a disease that is 20x as likely to be severe in old people than it is in young people. Let's say that 1% of young, unvaccinated people get severe disease. Here are the number of severe cases we'd expect in that population. 1 in the 1000 young vaccinated people 10 in the 1000 young unvaccinated people 20 in the 1000 old vaccinated people 200 in the 1000 old unvaccinated people If we look at the overall numbers we get 21 severe cases in vaccinated people and 210 severe cases in unvaccinated people. 9.1% of severe cases would be in vaccinated people. Now consider a population with 2000 young people and 2000 old people, with the same vaccines that reduces your chances of severe disease by 90% and where the diseases is 20x as likely to be severe in old people, but in this population 90% of the old people are vaccinated but the young are still only 50% vaccinated. Here are the number of severe cases we'd expect in that population. 1 in the 1000 young vaccinated people 10 in the 1000 young unvaccinated people 36 in the 1800 old vaccinated people 40 in the 200 old unvaccinated people Now for the overall population we get 37 severe cases in vaccinated people and 50 severe cases in unvaccinated people. 42.6% of cases would be in vaccinated people. If the young people also get vaccinated at the same 90% rate as the old people, here are the numbers for severe cases. 1.8 in the 1800 young vaccinated people 2 in the 200 young unvaccinated people 36 in the 1800 old vaccinated people 40 in the 200 old vaccinated people That gives for the overall population 37.8 severe cases in vaccinated people and 42 in unvaccinated people. 47.4% of cases would be in vaccinated people. If no one was vaccinated, the numbers would be 20 in the 2000 unvaccinated young people 400 in the 2000 unvaccinated old people for a total of 420 severe cases. 0% would be in vaccinated people. If everyone was vaccinated, the numbers would be 2 in the 2000 vaccinated young people 40 in the 2000 vaccinated old people for a total of 42 severe cases. 100% of cases would be in vaccinated people. It is useful to look at the severe case totals in our population of 2000 young people and 2000 old people. 420 severe cases when no one is vaccinated 231 severe cases when 50% of both young and old are vaccinated 87 severe cases when 50% of young and 90% of old are vaccinated 79.8 severe cases when 90% of both young and old are vaccinated 42 severe cases when everyone is vaccinated
    - didjathinkmess 5y ago
      He's talking about transmission, you are talking about reduction of symptoms. The vaccines don't prevent transmission. Now follow that to its logical conclusion: "we forcefully vaccinated everyone on Earth, why are we still having outbreaks?" Because... Well, you get it After you sit down and mull over this concept for a while, vaccine mandates make absolutely no sense. Vaccine passports make absolutely no sense. Unless your goal is a slight reduction in ICU patients, forcing people to get it is a straight up violation of human rights. "Pandemic of the unvaccinated" yeah, right. Blame the leaky vaccine, not the people who already have natural immunity.
      - silver-arrow 5y ago
        Thank you. Exactly.
      - tzs 5y ago
        > The vaccines don't prevent transmission. People vaccinated who get infected tend to have cases that do not last as long as they do in unvaccinated people, which reduces the number of people they spread it do.
        didjathinkmess 5y ago
        I haven't heard of a shorter duration with vaccination. Could you please post the source for this?
      - pfisch 5y ago
        Reducing the odds of getting covid does reduce transmission. That is what the vaccine does. All you have to do to stop the spread of a virus is lower R below 1. The vaccine would do that if we vaccinated everyone.
  - pfisch 5y ago
    Oh yes, the scientists of the unspecified date in the past when everything was perfect and there were no politics and no one was ever subverting science to tell us to smoke cigarettes. You are living in a fantasy. Science and economics have always been messy, and despite that advances in medical science are now and always have been the best and only real line of defense against disease.
- classichasclass 5y ago
  While agreeing with your general premise: pertussis is most definitely not extinct, unfortunately. We see recurrent waves of it in California about every five years. The problem is in adults (who haven't had a booster in ages) it's frequently mistaken for a bad cold, but it can kill young children. Also, because of their sheer ability to spread, MMR diseases can be big problems outside of the United States, though they are usually restricted to small pockets in the USA for exactly the reasons you mention. This is why we have to pay attention to community levels of vaccination, not just state or county-level. All outbreaks start local.
pfisch 5y ago
I have cystic fibrosis. They basically discovered the cure a few years ago. It is called trikafta. What you are saying is ridiculous. The medical industrial complex has problems, but it does deliver very real miracles to millions of people every year.

What do you mean? Smallpox is extinct, diptheria, pertussus and polio are nearly extinct, and measles mumps and rubella would be nearly extinct if not for pockets of antivaxers creating a constant stream of outbreaks. Go look up how many diseases these people killed prior to the vaccines, and then a few years after. You are absolutely taking for granted what we've accomplished through the use of vaccines.

silver-arrow 5y ago
I agree but those were scientists from the past that practiced real science. Meaning they accepted counter arguments and evidence; not just dictate. They also discovered through the scientific method that you can not vaccinate for corona viruses They also were acutely aware you should never mass vaccinate during a pandemic. They were correct and that is why you see the results in Israel, Singapore, England, and now the US, that you are seeing. That these are bad therapeutics at best. They could end up being worse. The scientist and doctors who accomplished what you enumerated are indeed out there, but their voices are being suppressed by bureaucrats that now represent crony corrupt science; like fauci.
- tzs 5y ago
  The Israel data shows excellent effectiveness of vaccines. For every age group it shows that the chances of severe COVID are greatly lower in the vaccinated than they are in the unvaccinated. If you just look at the totals for their whole population it may not look that way because you run into a Simpson's paradox situation. That's because older people are both more likely in general to have their COVID cases be severe, and older people in Israel or more likely to be vaccinated. To illustrate, imagine a population that has 2000 young people and 2000 old people, and both groups are 50% vaccinated with a vaccine that reduces your chances of severe disease by 90%, and image we are dealing with a disease that is 20x as likely to be severe in old people than it is in young people. Let's say that 1% of young, unvaccinated people get severe disease. Here are the number of severe cases we'd expect in that population. 1 in the 1000 young vaccinated people 10 in the 1000 young unvaccinated people 20 in the 1000 old vaccinated people 200 in the 1000 old unvaccinated people If we look at the overall numbers we get 21 severe cases in vaccinated people and 210 severe cases in unvaccinated people. 9.1% of severe cases would be in vaccinated people. Now consider a population with 2000 young people and 2000 old people, with the same vaccines that reduces your chances of severe disease by 90% and where the diseases is 20x as likely to be severe in old people, but in this population 90% of the old people are vaccinated but the young are still only 50% vaccinated. Here are the number of severe cases we'd expect in that population. 1 in the 1000 young vaccinated people 10 in the 1000 young unvaccinated people 36 in the 1800 old vaccinated people 40 in the 200 old unvaccinated people Now for the overall population we get 37 severe cases in vaccinated people and 50 severe cases in unvaccinated people. 42.6% of cases would be in vaccinated people. If the young people also get vaccinated at the same 90% rate as the old people, here are the numbers for severe cases. 1.8 in the 1800 young vaccinated people 2 in the 200 young unvaccinated people 36 in the 1800 old vaccinated people 40 in the 200 old vaccinated people That gives for the overall population 37.8 severe cases in vaccinated people and 42 in unvaccinated people. 47.4% of cases would be in vaccinated people. If no one was vaccinated, the numbers would be 20 in the 2000 unvaccinated young people 400 in the 2000 unvaccinated old people for a total of 420 severe cases. 0% would be in vaccinated people. If everyone was vaccinated, the numbers would be 2 in the 2000 vaccinated young people 40 in the 2000 vaccinated old people for a total of 42 severe cases. 100% of cases would be in vaccinated people. It is useful to look at the severe case totals in our population of 2000 young people and 2000 old people. 420 severe cases when no one is vaccinated 231 severe cases when 50% of both young and old are vaccinated 87 severe cases when 50% of young and 90% of old are vaccinated 79.8 severe cases when 90% of both young and old are vaccinated 42 severe cases when everyone is vaccinated
  - didjathinkmess 5y ago
    He's talking about transmission, you are talking about reduction of symptoms. The vaccines don't prevent transmission. Now follow that to its logical conclusion: "we forcefully vaccinated everyone on Earth, why are we still having outbreaks?" Because... Well, you get it After you sit down and mull over this concept for a while, vaccine mandates make absolutely no sense. Vaccine passports make absolutely no sense. Unless your goal is a slight reduction in ICU patients, forcing people to get it is a straight up violation of human rights. "Pandemic of the unvaccinated" yeah, right. Blame the leaky vaccine, not the people who already have natural immunity.
    - silver-arrow 5y ago
      Thank you. Exactly.
    - tzs 5y ago
      > The vaccines don't prevent transmission. People vaccinated who get infected tend to have cases that do not last as long as they do in unvaccinated people, which reduces the number of people they spread it do.
      - didjathinkmess 5y ago
        I haven't heard of a shorter duration with vaccination. Could you please post the source for this?
    - pfisch 5y ago
      Reducing the odds of getting covid does reduce transmission. That is what the vaccine does. All you have to do to stop the spread of a virus is lower R below 1. The vaccine would do that if we vaccinated everyone.
- pfisch 5y ago
  Oh yes, the scientists of the unspecified date in the past when everything was perfect and there were no politics and no one was ever subverting science to tell us to smoke cigarettes. You are living in a fantasy. Science and economics have always been messy, and despite that advances in medical science are now and always have been the best and only real line of defense against disease.
classichasclass 5y ago
While agreeing with your general premise: pertussis is most definitely not extinct, unfortunately. We see recurrent waves of it in California about every five years. The problem is in adults (who haven't had a booster in ages) it's frequently mistaken for a bad cold, but it can kill young children. Also, because of their sheer ability to spread, MMR diseases can be big problems outside of the United States, though they are usually restricted to small pockets in the USA for exactly the reasons you mention. This is why we have to pay attention to community levels of vaccination, not just state or county-level. All outbreaks start local.

pfisch 5y ago

I have cystic fibrosis. They basically discovered the cure a few years ago. It is called trikafta. What you are saying is ridiculous. The medical industrial complex has problems, but it does deliver very real miracles to millions of people every year.