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Some discussion on Haiku forums: https://discuss.haiku-os.org/t/ok-lenovo-we-need-to-talk-haiku-project/11414/63 https://discuss.haiku-os.org/t/ok-lenovo-we-nee

Some discussion on Haiku forums: https://discuss.haiku-os.org/t/ok-lenovo-we-need-to-talk-haiku-project/11414/63 https://discuss.haiku-os.org/t/ok-lenovo-we-need-to-talk-hai... Beyond the GNU/Linux debate [0], there's some interesting points in there. [0] Today i learnt: Haiku should not be called GNU/Haiku because Haiku is the entire system and not just the kernel, and rms (to my surprise) approves this interpretation

matheusmoreira 5y ago
Linux is the operating system. It manages hardware and provides system calls. It's possible to write software that Linux boots directly into, no user space at all. This GNU/Linux stuff comes from POSIX's definition of operating system. That piece of paper says operating systems have all these little commands like cp, mv, etc. Therefore, GNU gets to be part of the operating system because it provides those commands. It doesn't have to be this way though, especially on Linux where one can just trash all the GNU stuff and obtain or write custom software directly on top of the kernel.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > This GNU/Linux stuff comes from POSIX's definition of operating system Technically true. But do you run a lot of software that works without glibc and other userland utilities? > on Linux where one can just trash all the GNU stuff and obtain or write custom software directly on top of the kernel True, yet most of us still use a GNU/Linux distribution.
  - zibzab 5y ago
    Just don't forget that it goes both ways. GNU today's is much more relevant than GNU 30 years ago thanks to the Linux community. Would not surprise me if 80% of recent GNU contributions come from the Linux crowd.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    > But do you run a lot of software that works without glibc and other userland utilities? Yes. I made a few of these utilities for my own use. I actually started developing a Linux system call library to facillitate this but then I discovered the kernel developers themselves already made one for their own tools. https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/tools/include/nolibc/nolibc.h https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/tools/include/... People can include this awesome header file in a freestanding C project and enjoy making 100% dependency-free Linux binaries. No C standard library cruft anywhere. It's amazing. You could boot Linux directly into one of these things just by writing init=/my/program in the kernel command line. You'd need to do some init stuff like mounting procfs and sysfs but it's totally fine. I've even seen graphical software running this way with OpenGL ES on top of kernel interfaces for mode setting and buffer management, people could even make video games that run this way. I really want to get into this.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      > https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/tools/include/ https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/tools/include/... Cool, thanks for sharing! > I really want to get into this. Hope to see more links on that topic popping up on HN. Are you aware, beyond "raw" OpenGL, of any GUI/TUI frameworks for Go/Rust that would work this way?
      - matheusmoreira 5y ago
        > Are you aware, beyond "raw" OpenGL, of any GUI/TUI frameworks for Go/Rust that would work this way? I'd like to know as well. My most recent discovery was RetroArch, a really good frontend for many emulators. It's not freestanding but it does support OpenGL graphics with Linux kernel mode setting and generic buffer management. https://www.retroarch.net/2020/01/linux-kms-mode.html https://www.retroarch.net/2020/01/linux-kms-mode.html
  - 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
    >But do you run a lot of software that works without glibc and other userland utilities More and more as time goes on. Most applications written in Go do not require libc. Some of my servers have nothing on them but a few Go applications, like influxdb + prometheus + grafana. Theoretically you can strip out everything but the kernel (and replace systemd with something extremely lightweight, maybe also written in Go), but mainstream distributions don't make this easy, and what's the point anyway.
  - geofft 5y ago
    FROM alpine:latest
- msla 5y ago
  If we're doing this, Linux is the kernel and it's possible to have a GNU system without the Linux kernel. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, the Hurd, and even Windows with a GNU userspace (such as Cygwin) all exist.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    If we go down this route, we might as well name everything installed in user space. I'm running an i3/GNU/systemd/custom Linux system on my laptop. When do we stop? Sure, it's totally possible to install GNU software on other operating systems. You can install it on Linux, the BSDs, even Windows. They're just regular programs.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      I believe "Debian GNOME", "Manjaro KDE", or "guix sway" are very valid answers to "what system are you running?", don't you? I wouldn't list all userspace components for sure, but some can be relevant to include. "GNU/Linux" is a relevant label to me so i know we're talking about a system which has common POSIX-inspired utilities... "Linux" can be Android for all i know, which is a very different system.
      - matheusmoreira 5y ago
        I agree. It makes complete sense to mention the distribution you're using. Saying you use Debian is much better than saying GNU/Linux. People understand perfectly what sort of software Debian distributes, there is no need to mention anything else. Mentioning that I use Arch Linux annoys people for some reason so I stopped doing that. I just say I use Linux.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#many https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#many
      - matheusmoreira 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Right, same as how the BSDs are just themselves (natively, that is; things like Debian kFreeBSD loop back to being GNU/kFreeBSD or so). Linux is actually pretty rare in being just the kernel.
fsflover 5y ago
> and rms (to my surprise) approves this interpretation Why wouldn't he? See FAQ: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html

matheusmoreira 5y ago

Linux is the operating system. It manages hardware and provides system calls. It's possible to write software that Linux boots directly into, no user space at all. This GNU/Linux stuff comes from POSIX's definition of operating system. That piece of paper says operating systems have all these little commands like cp, mv, etc. Therefore, GNU gets to be part of the operating system because it provides those commands. It doesn't have to be this way though, especially on Linux where one can just trash all the GNU stuff and obtain or write custom software directly on top of the kernel.

southerntofu 5y ago
> This GNU/Linux stuff comes from POSIX's definition of operating system Technically true. But do you run a lot of software that works without glibc and other userland utilities? > on Linux where one can just trash all the GNU stuff and obtain or write custom software directly on top of the kernel True, yet most of us still use a GNU/Linux distribution.
- zibzab 5y ago
  Just don't forget that it goes both ways. GNU today's is much more relevant than GNU 30 years ago thanks to the Linux community. Would not surprise me if 80% of recent GNU contributions come from the Linux crowd.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  > But do you run a lot of software that works without glibc and other userland utilities? Yes. I made a few of these utilities for my own use. I actually started developing a Linux system call library to facillitate this but then I discovered the kernel developers themselves already made one for their own tools. https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/tools/include/nolibc/nolibc.h https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/tools/include/... People can include this awesome header file in a freestanding C project and enjoy making 100% dependency-free Linux binaries. No C standard library cruft anywhere. It's amazing. You could boot Linux directly into one of these things just by writing init=/my/program in the kernel command line. You'd need to do some init stuff like mounting procfs and sysfs but it's totally fine. I've even seen graphical software running this way with OpenGL ES on top of kernel interfaces for mode setting and buffer management, people could even make video games that run this way. I really want to get into this.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/tools/include/ https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/tools/include/... Cool, thanks for sharing! > I really want to get into this. Hope to see more links on that topic popping up on HN. Are you aware, beyond "raw" OpenGL, of any GUI/TUI frameworks for Go/Rust that would work this way?
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      > Are you aware, beyond "raw" OpenGL, of any GUI/TUI frameworks for Go/Rust that would work this way? I'd like to know as well. My most recent discovery was RetroArch, a really good frontend for many emulators. It's not freestanding but it does support OpenGL graphics with Linux kernel mode setting and generic buffer management. https://www.retroarch.net/2020/01/linux-kms-mode.html https://www.retroarch.net/2020/01/linux-kms-mode.html
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
  >But do you run a lot of software that works without glibc and other userland utilities More and more as time goes on. Most applications written in Go do not require libc. Some of my servers have nothing on them but a few Go applications, like influxdb + prometheus + grafana. Theoretically you can strip out everything but the kernel (and replace systemd with something extremely lightweight, maybe also written in Go), but mainstream distributions don't make this easy, and what's the point anyway.
- geofft 5y ago
  FROM alpine:latest
msla 5y ago
If we're doing this, Linux is the kernel and it's possible to have a GNU system without the Linux kernel. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, the Hurd, and even Windows with a GNU userspace (such as Cygwin) all exist.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  If we go down this route, we might as well name everything installed in user space. I'm running an i3/GNU/systemd/custom Linux system on my laptop. When do we stop? Sure, it's totally possible to install GNU software on other operating systems. You can install it on Linux, the BSDs, even Windows. They're just regular programs.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    I believe "Debian GNOME", "Manjaro KDE", or "guix sway" are very valid answers to "what system are you running?", don't you? I wouldn't list all userspace components for sure, but some can be relevant to include. "GNU/Linux" is a relevant label to me so i know we're talking about a system which has common POSIX-inspired utilities... "Linux" can be Android for all i know, which is a very different system.
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      I agree. It makes complete sense to mention the distribution you're using. Saying you use Debian is much better than saying GNU/Linux. People understand perfectly what sort of software Debian distributes, there is no need to mention anything else. Mentioning that I use Arch Linux annoys people for some reason so I stopped doing that. I just say I use Linux.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#many https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#many
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

Right, same as how the BSDs are just themselves (natively, that is; things like Debian kFreeBSD loop back to being GNU/kFreeBSD or so). Linux is actually pretty rare in being just the kernel.

fsflover 5y ago

> and rms (to my surprise) approves this interpretation Why wouldn't he? See FAQ: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html