4 ms·

What makes Dune and Foundation scifi and not just feudalism in space? The Foundation TV show bores me to death and when I look up their summaries online, they b

by nsonha 5y ago

What makes Dune and Foundation scifi and not just feudalism in space? The Foundation TV show bores me to death and when I look up their summaries online, they both seem to be about lessons of past civilizations more than the future. A galactic emprire? The last time someone tried to pull this conquering stuff was almost 100 years ago and it was doomed from the start.

namdnay 5y ago
Well, Foundation at least was clearly written by someone who had just read Gibbon
- skrebbel 5y ago
  Save you a right click: Edward Gibbon was an 18th century English historian who wrote a series of books called "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" . Parent suggests that said book was Asimov's inspiration for the fall of the Galactic Empire at the beginning of the Foundation series.
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
Dune is "feudalism in Space", and Foundation is "The decline and fall of the Roman Empire, in space". Although, I don't really agree that they're "just" that. > they both seem to be about lessons of past civilizations more than the future Sure, writers are going to learn from the past and write about current concerns. Even Sci-Fi does that. Dune has "this one drug is the most valuable thing in the galaxy ... and we mine it in the desert" - it's very 1960s.
- pjc50 5y ago
  > "this one drug is the most valuable thing in the galaxy ... and we mine it in the desert" - it's very 1960s. Collection of hardline religious insurgents in desert defeat superpower? Very 2021. (the inspiration is clear, e.g. Fedaykin => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen )
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    Oh the new movie definitely has a look around the military vehicles and personnel that reminds me of recent middle-eastern wars. That combo of religious tribesmen in desert robes with traditional weapons, on the ground; and expensive, hi-tec military hardware overhead, which has a distinctive look, is quite the contemporary version.
Grakel 5y ago
A lot of people are trying, they just stopped using guns, because a war is something you can lose. An economy is something you can slowly eat up over decades or centuries.
- nsonha 5y ago
  That's what conquerers like to think, that everyone thinks like them. It's just propaganda to legitimize them being the protector of the world. To me it's more likely that there are these one or 2 guys who used to rule with this outdated view of the world, than to think that many are secretly puisuing such a vain and tedious thing as ruling the world
canjobear 5y ago
From the interview: > FH: It’s my contention that feudalism is a natural condition of human beings…not that it is the only condition or not that it is the right condition…that it is just a way we have of falling into organisations. I like to use the example of the Berlin Museum Beavers. You ever come across this? > WM: No. > FH: Well my…the numbers are going to be wrong but it’s on this order… Before World War II there were a number of families of beaver in the Berlin Museum. They were European beaver. They had been there, raised in captivity for something on the order of seventy beaver generations, in cages. World War II came along and a bomb freed some of them into the countryside. What did they do? They went out and they started building dams. > ALL: (Laughter) > WM: Wow! Wow! > FH: Now tribal organisation…feudalism is tribal organisation… > WM: Oh, yes. > FH: And that’s what I’m talking about. So, tribal organisation is a natural organisation of humankind. We tend to fall into it, given any chance at all, given the proper stresses, or given the proper lack of stresses.
hodgesrm 5y ago
Dune seems more like the middle ages in space, specifically the period of explosive Muslim expansion starting in Medina in the 630s. The empire he describes reminds me of the Umayyad Caliphate with a distant Emperor (Caliph) ruling over fiefdoms spread acrss the Mediterranean basin and beyond.
post_from_work 5y ago
>>>What makes Dune and Foundation scifi and not just feudalism in space? The Foundation TV show bores me to death A LOT of science fiction is "X in space". The Hammer's Slammers stories are "Vietnam in space". The Honor Harrington novels are "Napoleonic naval warfare in space". I listened to Asimov's Foundation trilogy on Audible in the past 2 years and greatly enjoyed it. I hate the TV series. At this point I'm just watching the episodes to see how bad the trainwreck can get. Villenueve's Dune was like a palate cleanser for me Saturday. It's been 20 years since I read the book, but I grew up in the 90's with David Lynch's movie and always really enjoyed it. Dune 2021 felt like a faithful book rendition with some of the best visual/stylistic influences from David Lynch, but without his worst excesses of weirdness. >>>The last time someone tried to pull this conquering stuff was almost 100 years ago and it was doomed from the start. Arguably none of the conquest-minded leaders since the late 1700s have been successful, almost always because they've been fighting against larger economies of similar technological/industrial development. Also, offensive technology has become so destructive that closely-fought wars leave too much of the "target" economies completely devastated and not much of a prize. That doesn't mean a) tech won't develop to shift the balance towards protection (such as the shields in Dune) b) the next megalomaniac might start from a better existing powerbase, such as, say....China in 2050.
int_19h 5y ago
Feudalism is a social/political/economical system of society; it does not preclude fancy tech etc, which is generally considered to be the hallmark of soft sci-fi.

by nsonha 5y ago

namdnay 5y ago

Well, Foundation at least was clearly written by someone who had just read Gibbon

skrebbel 5y ago
Save you a right click: Edward Gibbon was an 18th century English historian who wrote a series of books called "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" . Parent suggests that said book was Asimov's inspiration for the fall of the Galactic Empire at the beginning of the Foundation series.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

Dune is "feudalism in Space", and Foundation is "The decline and fall of the Roman Empire, in space". Although, I don't really agree that they're "just" that. > they both seem to be about lessons of past civilizations more than the future Sure, writers are going to learn from the past and write about current concerns. Even Sci-Fi does that. Dune has "this one drug is the most valuable thing in the galaxy ... and we mine it in the desert" - it's very 1960s.

pjc50 5y ago
> "this one drug is the most valuable thing in the galaxy ... and we mine it in the desert" - it's very 1960s. Collection of hardline religious insurgents in desert defeat superpower? Very 2021. (the inspiration is clear, e.g. Fedaykin => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen )
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  Oh the new movie definitely has a look around the military vehicles and personnel that reminds me of recent middle-eastern wars. That combo of religious tribesmen in desert robes with traditional weapons, on the ground; and expensive, hi-tec military hardware overhead, which has a distinctive look, is quite the contemporary version.

Grakel 5y ago

A lot of people are trying, they just stopped using guns, because a war is something you can lose. An economy is something you can slowly eat up over decades or centuries.

nsonha 5y ago
That's what conquerers like to think, that everyone thinks like them. It's just propaganda to legitimize them being the protector of the world. To me it's more likely that there are these one or 2 guys who used to rule with this outdated view of the world, than to think that many are secretly puisuing such a vain and tedious thing as ruling the world

canjobear 5y ago

From the interview: > FH: It’s my contention that feudalism is a natural condition of human beings…not that it is the only condition or not that it is the right condition…that it is just a way we have of falling into organisations. I like to use the example of the Berlin Museum Beavers. You ever come across this? > WM: No. > FH: Well my…the numbers are going to be wrong but it’s on this order… Before World War II there were a number of families of beaver in the Berlin Museum. They were European beaver. They had been there, raised in captivity for something on the order of seventy beaver generations, in cages. World War II came along and a bomb freed some of them into the countryside. What did they do? They went out and they started building dams. > ALL: (Laughter) > WM: Wow! Wow! > FH: Now tribal organisation…feudalism is tribal organisation… > WM: Oh, yes. > FH: And that’s what I’m talking about. So, tribal organisation is a natural organisation of humankind. We tend to fall into it, given any chance at all, given the proper stresses, or given the proper lack of stresses.

hodgesrm 5y ago

Dune seems more like the middle ages in space, specifically the period of explosive Muslim expansion starting in Medina in the 630s. The empire he describes reminds me of the Umayyad Caliphate with a distant Emperor (Caliph) ruling over fiefdoms spread acrss the Mediterranean basin and beyond.

post_from_work 5y ago

>>>What makes Dune and Foundation scifi and not just feudalism in space? The Foundation TV show bores me to death A LOT of science fiction is "X in space". The Hammer's Slammers stories are "Vietnam in space". The Honor Harrington novels are "Napoleonic naval warfare in space". I listened to Asimov's Foundation trilogy on Audible in the past 2 years and greatly enjoyed it. I hate the TV series. At this point I'm just watching the episodes to see how bad the trainwreck can get. Villenueve's Dune was like a palate cleanser for me Saturday. It's been 20 years since I read the book, but I grew up in the 90's with David Lynch's movie and always really enjoyed it. Dune 2021 felt like a faithful book rendition with some of the best visual/stylistic influences from David Lynch, but without his worst excesses of weirdness. >>>The last time someone tried to pull this conquering stuff was almost 100 years ago and it was doomed from the start. Arguably none of the conquest-minded leaders since the late 1700s have been successful, almost always because they've been fighting against larger economies of similar technological/industrial development. Also, offensive technology has become so destructive that closely-fought wars leave too much of the "target" economies completely devastated and not much of a prize. That doesn't mean a) tech won't develop to shift the balance towards protection (such as the shields in Dune) b) the next megalomaniac might start from a better existing powerbase, such as, say....China in 2050.

int_19h 5y ago

Feudalism is a social/political/economical system of society; it does not preclude fancy tech etc, which is generally considered to be the hallmark of soft sci-fi.