7 ms·

Stallman was ALMOST right. The fight is not about which programs the user can run, but who controls the user data

by ddalex 5y ago

temac 5y ago
There is a fight for both. And the fight to stay in control of your data is far easier when you use Free Software.
echelon 5y ago
Tell that to every iPhone app developer. It's worse than not having the right to execute. You can't even build the program you want. You have to use Apple pay, Apple subscriptions, Apple login. And you don't even get a relationship with your customer. Truly draconian.
- HeckFeck 5y ago
  And they tell me that automake is bad!
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  And we don't that to happen to Windows too.
- depressedpanda 5y ago
  They also prevent installing 3rd party web browsers, while keeping Safari way behind all others in order to ensure that you cannot escape their control. Their behavior is inexcusable but not surprising; what baffles me is that it's allowed.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
HeckFeck 5y ago
> The fight is not about which programs the user can run, but who controls the user data Some things were so horrible, not even Stallman could imagine them happening in his worst nightmares.
appleflaxen 5y ago
He was early, but he wasn't wrong. We are still headed directly to the place he described.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  How is early not wrong?
Causality1 5y ago
Are you aware of the enormous amounts of blood, sweat, and tears expended by people on XDA Developers just to unlock bootloader to use functions as simple as custom gesture controls?
- tata71 5y ago
  Are you aware of how often they fail?
  - Causality1 5y ago
    Exactly. It's very much a war about what programs users can run, and the users don't always win.
DeathArrow 5y ago
>The fight is not about which programs the user can run, but who controls the user data But the user data is mostly in the cloud, owned by Apple, MS, Google, Amazon, Facebook. In the future we will be lucky to have apps that work offline with local data.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "In the future we will be lucky to have apps that work offline with local data. " Are you from the past? This here is 2021. And right here, the expensive, professional apps still lets you grudgingly do it, but small/casual apps that work really offline? That became rare. Usually it is mainly server and some local cache, you better take care of, if you are in an area with bad connection. But more and more of my peers realize, how much spotify sucks, when there is suddenly no more internet. Well, I still have my own music collection(and my own player for it) and use spotify just for discovery. Each to his own and thank you, for the existence of open source and foss.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"but small/casual apps that work really offline?" I do not have single small/casual app I paid for or free ones that does not work with offline data.
  - johnebgd 5y ago
    Office, creative suite, and your flavor of pdf viewer still all work primarily off local files since cloud storage vendors all compete and don’t interconnect except at integration for the endpoint.
    - easrng 5y ago
      Office has OneDrive (IIRC some are cloud-only, OneNote I think) and many of Adobe's apps save to Adobe's cloud.
  - jynelson 5y ago
    Spotify works fine offline, you just have to download the tracks ahead of time.
cabalamat 5y ago
It's both.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
No, Stallman was right about pretty much everything. It's impressive how far into the future he saw, much earlier than many of us, including myself. There is no computing freedom without software freedom, and there is no software freedom without hardware freedom. Control of data is a related problem. It's absolutely relevant but it's not in any way opposed to computing freedom. In fact, they are aligned. Computing freedom helps us retain control of our data even when faced with hostile corporations.
- ddingus 5y ago
  Exactly right. The move to ARM will highlight the hardware freedom in a big way. People are used to ARM being different and are that much more likely to forget open, general purpose computing right along with that "old" x86... Heh, I always disliked x86. But now? I look at it fondly. Strange times. Edit: It is the IBM PC lineage I speak of here, not just the ISA.
  - dTal 5y ago
    It's not the instruction set - it's the IBM PC-compatible standard that gave us our golden era of desktop computing. Standard bootloaders, standard ports, standard keyboard layouts. We owe it so much.
    - ddingus 5y ago
      Yes, I agree and just made the reference off hand. We do! [Looks over at Apple //e and IBM XT] We need another open effort. Soon.
  - rossy 5y ago
    No, I don't think it will. I hate this trend of pretending that our relative freedom on PCs has anything to do with the platform. Our freedom on UEFI Secure Boot PCs was hard fought and could be taken away at Microsoft's whim*. They literally hold the keys. Remember the drama about whether Linux would be allowed to run under Secure Boot at all? That was last decade's reminder about hardware freedom and it had nothing to do with a new ISA. Thankfully Microsoft graciously decided that all Windows 8 logo hardware should allow users to load their own keys, but there's nothing intrinsic about the PC platform that forced them to make that decision, and nothing forcing them to keep it. * This Ars article seems to say it's already been taken away. I'm trying to confirm Microsoft's current UEFI requirements in their docs, but I can't find them. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/windows-10-to-make-the-secure-boot-alt-os-lock-out-a-reality/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/windo...
dTal 5y ago
Weird take, given this is a thread about Microsoft effectively banning a program.

Stallman was ALMOST right. The fight is not about which programs the user can run, but who controls the user data

by ddalex 5y ago

Stallman was ALMOST right. The fight is not about which programs the user can run, but who controls the user data

temac 5y ago

There is a fight for both. And the fight to stay in control of your data is far easier when you use Free Software.

echelon 5y ago

Tell that to every iPhone app developer. It's worse than not having the right to execute. You can't even build the program you want. You have to use Apple pay, Apple subscriptions, Apple login. And you don't even get a relationship with your customer. Truly draconian.

HeckFeck 5y ago
And they tell me that automake is bad!
DeathArrow 5y ago
And we don't that to happen to Windows too.
depressedpanda 5y ago
They also prevent installing 3rd party web browsers, while keeping Safari way behind all others in order to ensure that you cannot escape their control. Their behavior is inexcusable but not surprising; what baffles me is that it's allowed.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

HeckFeck 5y ago

> The fight is not about which programs the user can run, but who controls the user data Some things were so horrible, not even Stallman could imagine them happening in his worst nightmares.

appleflaxen 5y ago

He was early, but he wasn't wrong. We are still headed directly to the place he described.

skeeter2020 5y ago
How is early not wrong?

Causality1 5y ago

Are you aware of the enormous amounts of blood, sweat, and tears expended by people on XDA Developers just to unlock bootloader to use functions as simple as custom gesture controls?

tata71 5y ago
Are you aware of how often they fail?
- Causality1 5y ago
  Exactly. It's very much a war about what programs users can run, and the users don't always win.

DeathArrow 5y ago

>The fight is not about which programs the user can run, but who controls the user data But the user data is mostly in the cloud, owned by Apple, MS, Google, Amazon, Facebook. In the future we will be lucky to have apps that work offline with local data.

hutzlibu 5y ago
"In the future we will be lucky to have apps that work offline with local data. " Are you from the past? This here is 2021. And right here, the expensive, professional apps still lets you grudgingly do it, but small/casual apps that work really offline? That became rare. Usually it is mainly server and some local cache, you better take care of, if you are in an area with bad connection. But more and more of my peers realize, how much spotify sucks, when there is suddenly no more internet. Well, I still have my own music collection(and my own player for it) and use spotify just for discovery. Each to his own and thank you, for the existence of open source and foss.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"but small/casual apps that work really offline?" I do not have single small/casual app I paid for or free ones that does not work with offline data.
- johnebgd 5y ago
  Office, creative suite, and your flavor of pdf viewer still all work primarily off local files since cloud storage vendors all compete and don’t interconnect except at integration for the endpoint.
  - easrng 5y ago
    Office has OneDrive (IIRC some are cloud-only, OneNote I think) and many of Adobe's apps save to Adobe's cloud.
- jynelson 5y ago
  Spotify works fine offline, you just have to download the tracks ahead of time.

cabalamat 5y ago

It's both.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

No, Stallman was right about pretty much everything. It's impressive how far into the future he saw, much earlier than many of us, including myself. There is no computing freedom without software freedom, and there is no software freedom without hardware freedom. Control of data is a related problem. It's absolutely relevant but it's not in any way opposed to computing freedom. In fact, they are aligned. Computing freedom helps us retain control of our data even when faced with hostile corporations.

ddingus 5y ago
Exactly right. The move to ARM will highlight the hardware freedom in a big way. People are used to ARM being different and are that much more likely to forget open, general purpose computing right along with that "old" x86... Heh, I always disliked x86. But now? I look at it fondly. Strange times. Edit: It is the IBM PC lineage I speak of here, not just the ISA.
- dTal 5y ago
  It's not the instruction set - it's the IBM PC-compatible standard that gave us our golden era of desktop computing. Standard bootloaders, standard ports, standard keyboard layouts. We owe it so much.
  - ddingus 5y ago
    Yes, I agree and just made the reference off hand. We do! [Looks over at Apple //e and IBM XT] We need another open effort. Soon.
- rossy 5y ago
  No, I don't think it will. I hate this trend of pretending that our relative freedom on PCs has anything to do with the platform. Our freedom on UEFI Secure Boot PCs was hard fought and could be taken away at Microsoft's whim*. They literally hold the keys. Remember the drama about whether Linux would be allowed to run under Secure Boot at all? That was last decade's reminder about hardware freedom and it had nothing to do with a new ISA. Thankfully Microsoft graciously decided that all Windows 8 logo hardware should allow users to load their own keys, but there's nothing intrinsic about the PC platform that forced them to make that decision, and nothing forcing them to keep it. * This Ars article seems to say it's already been taken away. I'm trying to confirm Microsoft's current UEFI requirements in their docs, but I can't find them. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/windows-10-to-make-the-secure-boot-alt-os-lock-out-a-reality/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/windo...

dTal 5y ago

Weird take, given this is a thread about Microsoft effectively banning a program.