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That's not how any of these things work, at all. Much in the same way that Facebook and WhatsApp already hash direct messages and compare them to hashes of ad k

by bryans 5y ago

That's not how any of these things work, at all. Much in the same way that Facebook and WhatsApp already hash direct messages and compare them to hashes of ad key phrases known to be effective, both audio and video can be hashed at the device level and sent as comparatively small strings, rather than large buffers of media. This can happen while the device is offline, and they can be easily sent along with routine data, which wouldn't even look out of place. Speech recognition doesn't even need to enter the equation at any point.

eightysixfour 5y ago
Using some sort of hash instead of transcribing the speech doesn’t change any of the things I listed that make this implausible. There would need to be a background service that has access to the mic without using the official APIs (which show a mic notification) that somehow no one has been able to find for the 5+ years that people have been claiming this is happening. The truth for all of these is probably that we are boring and predictable combined with some version of the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon.
- bryans 5y ago
  I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it does not need to be a background service that's subverting a sandbox. It just needs to be a running app that has been given microphone permissions. Zoom and even basic voice memo apps, for example, can capture and send audio just fine even while another app is in focus, and can do so without displaying a microphone icon of any sort within the OS UI. Most people blindly install applications with whichever permissions are requested, and the typical social media user won't ever be intentionally force stopping the app when they're done checking it, so they are always effectively running in the background -- presuming that some battery optimization hasn't kicked in. Facebook and others are very overzealous about their default permissions, and that inarguably, absolutely, 1,000% gives them the technical ability to do whatever they want with your microphone while the app is running, and their user agreement allows them to do anything they want with anything they capture from any source. So, with all of that in mind, it is completely reasonable to expect that audio recordings could be hashed locally and sent as routine API data without it being at all obvious. I'm not necessarily saying that past research into these claims had the wrong conclusions, but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs, and aren't afraid to collude[0] with each other to make those invasions happen without public pushback. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28967575 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28967575
  - eightysixfour 5y ago
    There's not a 3rd party app on my iPhone that accesses the mic that does not show the microphone notification. Zoom shows the recording icon when open in the background. > but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs I'm not being naïve and I don't have a facebook for the reasons you mention. My problem is that you're making alot of assertions with no backing and suggesting something that is extremely unlikely is true, so the burden of proof is on you to show that it happens or, at least, how it could happen. Right now, I think it is highly unreasonable that the social apps are using exploits to gain access to the microphone without the OS being aware. Not to mention the challenge of hashing messy, real world audio for keywords.
    - bryans 5y ago
      I'm happy your iPhone shows you the notification in all situations, but that's not true for older iOS versions or any version of Android -- aside from maybe v11. So to outright claim that it's not possible just because you, personally, don't experience it, is plain silly. Especially because I, personally, can open any number of apps on my Pixel 3 right now and have them record in the background without a microphone icon ever being visible. And as far as real world audio being a challenge, I think you might be slightly behind the times on the power of perceptual hashing. It's disturbingly accurate with very little context or effort.
      - eightysixfour 5y ago
        It has been that way for a long time on iOS, I just checked and even a phone call requires the icon. Yet another reason not to trust Android devices. I am broadly aware of perceptual hashing and its capabilities. Where I feel like you are underestimating the amount of work involved is in performing perceptual hashing without anyone noticing and then matching without anyone noticing. If you take the OPs example of “warheads,” where does the matching happen? Are you suggesting the social apps are storing the hashes of everything people said and then sending them to servers to match against a list of perceptual hashes? Because then you’re just hashing the audio and sending it, which would be obvious. The other option would require a list of perceptual hashed to be stored on device and a local match performed, this would, again, be obvious because now the social apps would have to store a giant set of hashes locally. For example, Roku and TVs use the former - they sample your content and send hashes off to a server for matching, this is identifiable in their network data and would, similarly, be identifiable in mobile app network data. Importantly, they’re sampling controlled data and can simply send an image hash every X-seconds, you can’t do that with the “warheads” example, you need to capture and send it all to catch the key words.

by bryans 5y ago

eightysixfour 5y ago

Using some sort of hash instead of transcribing the speech doesn’t change any of the things I listed that make this implausible. There would need to be a background service that has access to the mic without using the official APIs (which show a mic notification) that somehow no one has been able to find for the 5+ years that people have been claiming this is happening. The truth for all of these is probably that we are boring and predictable combined with some version of the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon.

bryans 5y ago
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it does not need to be a background service that's subverting a sandbox. It just needs to be a running app that has been given microphone permissions. Zoom and even basic voice memo apps, for example, can capture and send audio just fine even while another app is in focus, and can do so without displaying a microphone icon of any sort within the OS UI. Most people blindly install applications with whichever permissions are requested, and the typical social media user won't ever be intentionally force stopping the app when they're done checking it, so they are always effectively running in the background -- presuming that some battery optimization hasn't kicked in. Facebook and others are very overzealous about their default permissions, and that inarguably, absolutely, 1,000% gives them the technical ability to do whatever they want with your microphone while the app is running, and their user agreement allows them to do anything they want with anything they capture from any source. So, with all of that in mind, it is completely reasonable to expect that audio recordings could be hashed locally and sent as routine API data without it being at all obvious. I'm not necessarily saying that past research into these claims had the wrong conclusions, but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs, and aren't afraid to collude[0] with each other to make those invasions happen without public pushback. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28967575 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28967575
- eightysixfour 5y ago
  There's not a 3rd party app on my iPhone that accesses the mic that does not show the microphone notification. Zoom shows the recording icon when open in the background. > but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs I'm not being naïve and I don't have a facebook for the reasons you mention. My problem is that you're making alot of assertions with no backing and suggesting something that is extremely unlikely is true, so the burden of proof is on you to show that it happens or, at least, how it could happen. Right now, I think it is highly unreasonable that the social apps are using exploits to gain access to the microphone without the OS being aware. Not to mention the challenge of hashing messy, real world audio for keywords.
  - bryans 5y ago
    I'm happy your iPhone shows you the notification in all situations, but that's not true for older iOS versions or any version of Android -- aside from maybe v11. So to outright claim that it's not possible just because you, personally, don't experience it, is plain silly. Especially because I, personally, can open any number of apps on my Pixel 3 right now and have them record in the background without a microphone icon ever being visible. And as far as real world audio being a challenge, I think you might be slightly behind the times on the power of perceptual hashing. It's disturbingly accurate with very little context or effort.
    - eightysixfour 5y ago
      It has been that way for a long time on iOS, I just checked and even a phone call requires the icon. Yet another reason not to trust Android devices. I am broadly aware of perceptual hashing and its capabilities. Where I feel like you are underestimating the amount of work involved is in performing perceptual hashing without anyone noticing and then matching without anyone noticing. If you take the OPs example of “warheads,” where does the matching happen? Are you suggesting the social apps are storing the hashes of everything people said and then sending them to servers to match against a list of perceptual hashes? Because then you’re just hashing the audio and sending it, which would be obvious. The other option would require a list of perceptual hashed to be stored on device and a local match performed, this would, again, be obvious because now the social apps would have to store a giant set of hashes locally. For example, Roku and TVs use the former - they sample your content and send hashes off to a server for matching, this is identifiable in their network data and would, similarly, be identifiable in mobile app network data. Importantly, they’re sampling controlled data and can simply send an image hash every X-seconds, you can’t do that with the “warheads” example, you need to capture and send it all to catch the key words.