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The issue is not poverty at all. The issue is addiction. This constant framing of the homeless as dispossessed victims, rather than substance abusers with agenc

The issue is not poverty at all. The issue is addiction. This constant framing of the homeless as dispossessed victims, rather than substance abusers with agency, makes it impossible to solve the issue.

all2well 5y ago
Isn't drug addiction specifically when you lose agency over your own drug use?
- samstave 5y ago
  Its hard to be 'upwardly mobile' and drop an addiction, find a job, get out of depression, have positive self image - when you are homeless, and every US service designed to help you is fucked beyond repair and stealing so much money. I once looked at the SF budget for SFDPH and it showed all the roles, budget and costs. Payroll being the highest - but it also stated the number of homeless people in the city I did the simple math of dividing the budget by the nu,ber of homeless and at that time the number would have equated paying every homeless person $12 an hour. or ~$24,000 per year. Whichwould equate to UBI for such folks - and one could put stipulations on that such that it automatically made a savings account for the user with some % of that savings going into a fund which would be designed to, with the interest made on investment for that fund - be used to pay for more housing developments, job training etc... regardless of my lack of expertise in developing homeless help programs (I have thought of several - here is the one I wanted to apply to YC with) I try, and compared to what the city of SF spends and how well their policies work, I think evaluating other options is critically needed. Here was my concept for applying to YC (this is from ~5 years ago or so) --- 'Care Fleet' -- Mobile hygiene and necessities vehicle: A box truck with a built out full set of bathrooms with capability to self steam sterilize after each use. A one-seat barber station. A service of providing clothing to all homeless in the form of, effectively, Scrubs. And not some crazy embarrassing color. Offer them in grey, black, brown/khaki only. Socks and Shoes. Basic hygiene kit (tooth brush, shaver, soap, whatever, wipes, female hygiene stuffs) Allow homeless to take a shower, get a cut, get some scrubs and help info and some hydration and help info. --- How I maintain compassion for the homeless is twofold; I have three precious beautiful children. So whenever I see a homeless person, I see someones precious baby, a human who was once perfectly innocent. Whenever I see homeless walking in absolute shreds of clothing, no shoes, or like one sock on, it breaks my heart. If you have children, look at them - now imagine them walking through the streets filthy with shreds of clothing barely clinging to their bodies and being invisible to the rest of society aside from their disdain for your situation. See your child in that person.
- zarkov99 5y ago
  Its not black and white. Of course they can use some help, but they also need to face consequences for they own choices. Just read the book for examples of how other countries, like Holland and Portugal, have been very successful addressing their own addiction problems. In all cases the addict is provided support but is also held accountable for his own part in the addiction. This is how adults operate and the sooner we stop infantilizing these people the sooner we can see results and the better off everybody will be.
sizzle 5y ago
No the issue is lack of mental health intervention because the field of Psychiatry and our collective understanding of brain chemistry imbalances is very rudimentary, the science just isn’t there yet. So people with mental health problems can’t hold jobs and function in society like people with neurotypical brain chemistry. Addiction can be linked to dopamine regulation disorder e.g. ADHD and risky behavior like gambling addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, etc. We need to address the mental health problem underlying homelessness
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  If you walk down many streets in the Mission and look a certain way, people will offer you weed, crack, or smack openly on the sidewalk in broad daylight. That's not an exaggeration, and if you haven't been to your city's equivalent I highly encourage it. If you imagine a society crippled by gambling addiction, perhaps the best place to start would be by closing some casinos.
  - sizzle 5y ago
    I see homeless who are speaking to themselves like they are hearing voices e.g. schizophrenia and other mental illness indicators more often than not. Maybe being homeless causes symptoms of mental Illness, or having untreated mental illness will force you to not hold a job and be employable like neurotypical workers in SF. Just because your experience is seeing rampant drug use in the homeless population doesn’t mean it’s the main reason they are on the street. Drug addiction is not mutually exclusive from having mental illness and from having a degree in neuroscience, I learned that being neuroatypical with an imbalanced brain chemistry, e.g. dopamine regulation disorders and other neurotransmitter issues can easily result in the symptoms of risky behavior and substance abuse and addiction, which further damages your brain and neurodegeneration, thus having more mental illness. Being sober from substance abuse is a huge factor to achieving gainful employment and rejoining society. Having untreated mental illness is increasing the difficulty mode of your life because you are not in control of your full brain if it’s imbalanced and addiction is an emergent neurochemical response to reinforcing pathways in your brain from a hyper pleasurable activity that lights up your imbalanced brain. Sorry I’m rambling but mental illness and homelessness is never really talked about they are destined to be left out of society if they can’t utilize their full cognitive abilities due to untreated mental illness and psychiatric intervention.
randomsearch 5y ago
This attitude and it’s logical conclusions are why America has this problem. Compared to most European countries there’s an utter lack of compassion for people less fortunate. Yes, a small part of homelessness is caused by drug issues (far more drug problems are the consequences of homelessness) but you only have to look at the absence of a proper welfare state, health system, and other essential safety nets, to see why things are so bad. You want to live in a society without massive social problems, you have to pay a decent amount of tax to support the services that sustain a good society.
- zarkov99 5y ago
  I believe you are misinformed. There is plenty of compassion, specially in the cities discussed in the book, that is not the issue at all, nor is lack of spending at all. Please read the book, or listen to any of the podcasts the author recently did, the Joe Rogan one is good summary. Please, I do not mean to be condescending, just listen or read with an open mind. This is not about compassion vs accountability or left vs right, this is about solving a problem that is destroying American cities.
  - randomsearch 5y ago
    > I believe you are misinformed I've travelled all over America and Europe. The difference between attitudes to homeless people and welfare spending is vast. I've heard so many Americans describe homeless people as "bums". > nor is lack of spending at all. The small government and lack of a welfare and healthcare system are the principle criticism aimed at the US by Europeans. It's such a shame, as there are many things I admire about America but I wouldn't want to live in such an inequitable country without these now well-established essential components of a civilised society. Having said that: > just listen or read with an open mind. As you wrote so reasonably, I will examine this material afresh, to see if it presents any convincing counter-arguments. The cold hard facts of US tax and government spending etc. will be hard to overcome, but I will be patient. > this is about solving a problem that is destroying American cities. This is certainly something we agree on, it is so tragic to see, it feels like another sign of America's downfall - a decline that has consequences for every western nation. For our part, in the UK we are headed down the American path: slashing public spending, which has led to the closure of many of our homeless hostels, eradicating the welfare safety net so that many people live on the street for lack of housing, etc. The result has been soaring homelessness in our cities on a level I had not seen outside of America until the last decade.

all2well 5y ago

Isn't drug addiction specifically when you lose agency over your own drug use?

samstave 5y ago
Its hard to be 'upwardly mobile' and drop an addiction, find a job, get out of depression, have positive self image - when you are homeless, and every US service designed to help you is fucked beyond repair and stealing so much money. I once looked at the SF budget for SFDPH and it showed all the roles, budget and costs. Payroll being the highest - but it also stated the number of homeless people in the city I did the simple math of dividing the budget by the nu,ber of homeless and at that time the number would have equated paying every homeless person $12 an hour. or ~$24,000 per year. Whichwould equate to UBI for such folks - and one could put stipulations on that such that it automatically made a savings account for the user with some % of that savings going into a fund which would be designed to, with the interest made on investment for that fund - be used to pay for more housing developments, job training etc... regardless of my lack of expertise in developing homeless help programs (I have thought of several - here is the one I wanted to apply to YC with) I try, and compared to what the city of SF spends and how well their policies work, I think evaluating other options is critically needed. Here was my concept for applying to YC (this is from ~5 years ago or so) --- 'Care Fleet' -- Mobile hygiene and necessities vehicle: A box truck with a built out full set of bathrooms with capability to self steam sterilize after each use. A one-seat barber station. A service of providing clothing to all homeless in the form of, effectively, Scrubs. And not some crazy embarrassing color. Offer them in grey, black, brown/khaki only. Socks and Shoes. Basic hygiene kit (tooth brush, shaver, soap, whatever, wipes, female hygiene stuffs) Allow homeless to take a shower, get a cut, get some scrubs and help info and some hydration and help info. --- How I maintain compassion for the homeless is twofold; I have three precious beautiful children. So whenever I see a homeless person, I see someones precious baby, a human who was once perfectly innocent. Whenever I see homeless walking in absolute shreds of clothing, no shoes, or like one sock on, it breaks my heart. If you have children, look at them - now imagine them walking through the streets filthy with shreds of clothing barely clinging to their bodies and being invisible to the rest of society aside from their disdain for your situation. See your child in that person.
zarkov99 5y ago
Its not black and white. Of course they can use some help, but they also need to face consequences for they own choices. Just read the book for examples of how other countries, like Holland and Portugal, have been very successful addressing their own addiction problems. In all cases the addict is provided support but is also held accountable for his own part in the addiction. This is how adults operate and the sooner we stop infantilizing these people the sooner we can see results and the better off everybody will be.

sizzle 5y ago

No the issue is lack of mental health intervention because the field of Psychiatry and our collective understanding of brain chemistry imbalances is very rudimentary, the science just isn’t there yet. So people with mental health problems can’t hold jobs and function in society like people with neurotypical brain chemistry. Addiction can be linked to dopamine regulation disorder e.g. ADHD and risky behavior like gambling addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, etc. We need to address the mental health problem underlying homelessness

honkdaddy 5y ago
If you walk down many streets in the Mission and look a certain way, people will offer you weed, crack, or smack openly on the sidewalk in broad daylight. That's not an exaggeration, and if you haven't been to your city's equivalent I highly encourage it. If you imagine a society crippled by gambling addiction, perhaps the best place to start would be by closing some casinos.
- sizzle 5y ago
  I see homeless who are speaking to themselves like they are hearing voices e.g. schizophrenia and other mental illness indicators more often than not. Maybe being homeless causes symptoms of mental Illness, or having untreated mental illness will force you to not hold a job and be employable like neurotypical workers in SF. Just because your experience is seeing rampant drug use in the homeless population doesn’t mean it’s the main reason they are on the street. Drug addiction is not mutually exclusive from having mental illness and from having a degree in neuroscience, I learned that being neuroatypical with an imbalanced brain chemistry, e.g. dopamine regulation disorders and other neurotransmitter issues can easily result in the symptoms of risky behavior and substance abuse and addiction, which further damages your brain and neurodegeneration, thus having more mental illness. Being sober from substance abuse is a huge factor to achieving gainful employment and rejoining society. Having untreated mental illness is increasing the difficulty mode of your life because you are not in control of your full brain if it’s imbalanced and addiction is an emergent neurochemical response to reinforcing pathways in your brain from a hyper pleasurable activity that lights up your imbalanced brain. Sorry I’m rambling but mental illness and homelessness is never really talked about they are destined to be left out of society if they can’t utilize their full cognitive abilities due to untreated mental illness and psychiatric intervention.

randomsearch 5y ago

This attitude and it’s logical conclusions are why America has this problem. Compared to most European countries there’s an utter lack of compassion for people less fortunate. Yes, a small part of homelessness is caused by drug issues (far more drug problems are the consequences of homelessness) but you only have to look at the absence of a proper welfare state, health system, and other essential safety nets, to see why things are so bad. You want to live in a society without massive social problems, you have to pay a decent amount of tax to support the services that sustain a good society.

zarkov99 5y ago
I believe you are misinformed. There is plenty of compassion, specially in the cities discussed in the book, that is not the issue at all, nor is lack of spending at all. Please read the book, or listen to any of the podcasts the author recently did, the Joe Rogan one is good summary. Please, I do not mean to be condescending, just listen or read with an open mind. This is not about compassion vs accountability or left vs right, this is about solving a problem that is destroying American cities.
- randomsearch 5y ago
  > I believe you are misinformed I've travelled all over America and Europe. The difference between attitudes to homeless people and welfare spending is vast. I've heard so many Americans describe homeless people as "bums". > nor is lack of spending at all. The small government and lack of a welfare and healthcare system are the principle criticism aimed at the US by Europeans. It's such a shame, as there are many things I admire about America but I wouldn't want to live in such an inequitable country without these now well-established essential components of a civilised society. Having said that: > just listen or read with an open mind. As you wrote so reasonably, I will examine this material afresh, to see if it presents any convincing counter-arguments. The cold hard facts of US tax and government spending etc. will be hard to overcome, but I will be patient. > this is about solving a problem that is destroying American cities. This is certainly something we agree on, it is so tragic to see, it feels like another sign of America's downfall - a decline that has consequences for every western nation. For our part, in the UK we are headed down the American path: slashing public spending, which has led to the closure of many of our homeless hostels, eradicating the welfare safety net so that many people live on the street for lack of housing, etc. The result has been soaring homelessness in our cities on a level I had not seen outside of America until the last decade.