4 ms·

This interview is, among other very interesting threads of various ideas, like a capsule course in writing fiction from a master. It is well worth reading as it

This interview is, among other very interesting threads of various ideas, like a capsule course in writing fiction from a master. It is well worth reading as it is not simply about the story, but rather how he put together a story, constructed layers and characters, and something like sketching out the mechanics of the dynamic between author, text, and readers: FH: You see, and so we turn the whole thing whirling backward through the story. There was another thing there, in the pacing of the story, very slow at the beginning. It’s a coital rhythm all the way through the story. WM: It’s a what? FH: Coital rhythm. WM: OK. FH: Very slow pace, increasing all the way through, and when you get to the ending of it, I chopped it at a non breaking point, so that the person reading the story skids out of the story, trailing bits of it with him. On this I know I was successful, because people come to me and say they want more and… It's a great read. Of course issues of power, structures of power, "the voice", and all things Dune are there as well.

canjobear 5y ago
Apparently one of Frank Herbert's many obscure inspirations was the book "The Sexual Cycle of Human Warfare" by N.I.M. Walter which argues that war is like a civilizational-level collective orgasm.
- Theizestooke 5y ago
  Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately hard to find a copy I just found out.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    This is the kind of thing I find Archive.org and openlibrary invaluable for. In this case a quick search didn't reveal it, but Google books has a scanned copy which you can use snippet view on so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a copy somewhere on archive.org edit: hackernews regular gwern appears to have a digital copy of the book.
    - Theizestooke 5y ago
      I found a digital copy that's probably converted scanned pages, better than nothing.
      - gwern 5y ago
        Considering that Walter appears to have not sold even the first printing of it (which is why copies of it are incredibly scarce - my guess is that most of it was pulped and only a few score copies ever sold, I still don't know how FH got one), I can assure you that you are not going to find anything better than my scan, and also that it's a lot better than nothing. (Someone needs to go through it & GEoD carefully, the influence is a lot greater than Dune critics previously realized.)
        Theizestooke 5y ago
        Thanks for your work, didn't mean to sound negative. Wasn't aware it's such a rare book.
        gwern 5y ago
        Oh yeah. I had to wait somewhere between 5 and 10 years before a copy finally surfaced online for <$120. I was terrified as I spent the $28 that the seller was going to realize what a huge pricing mistake they had made and would cancel my order (which happens occasionally), or that I'd get a different book (also happens occasionally...). Still, I scanned it myself just because getting another copy would be so hard.
Variegation 5y ago
> "how he puts together a story, constructed layers, and characters," [..] It is also a matter of involving syncretic ideas into the expanding dynamics to animate feelings fixedly and methodically. As Frank signifies, this book draws proportionately from the nature of sand, and how men (who have come to adopt religious attributions towards the climate, which begin from the autochthonous roots and expand to more complex 'felt' actions) behave in certain environmental conditions. This can be examined from the winding death of Kynes (the ecologist of Arrakis) as he comes to understand the futility of his efforts, and the fact that his planet only impassively accepted him as a submitted figure of service, a scene described as "important" for the overall significance of the story's political interpretation. """ ... about the death of the planetary ecologist in "Dune" being a very touching spot, I think you said... a very moving... Well, I felt also it was a very significant point. A lot of the story swung around this: how the ecologist died. I thought it was very important that the planet killed the ecologist. Even though he planet... I mean, even though the ecologist was technically able to subdue anything within that... Well, there he lay dying. """ With this, you can begin to see the complex symbolism of most of the characters' traits and their responses to certain conditions. I fondly remember reading, in rather vagrant patterns between pages, Dune for the sake of understanding how these different interplays of ideas paved the methods of plot construction, nearly all of which seemed necessary to some extent to portray (in story and in sensation) contention, mystery and of course the parched, suffocating desert setting. The latter, which I have quoted, resounded with me especially. In light of the sudden reinterest for the Novel, I suppose I will be reading it more carefully this time around. Another interesting point you mention is rhythm, both in meter (".. I wrote certain parts of it in haiku and other poetical forms, and then expanded them to prose to create a pace") and the progression of ideas. His slight bawdry way of describing it, these ideas arriving at a closing halt towards the end for a more evocative summarization and interpolation (satiation), even if these ideas sparsely appear in the peripheral mind after completing the novel, describes the connection quite fully. Of course, such an experience can only come from an honest reading of the work, and an appreciation of dynamics.

canjobear 5y ago

Apparently one of Frank Herbert's many obscure inspirations was the book "The Sexual Cycle of Human Warfare" by N.I.M. Walter which argues that war is like a civilizational-level collective orgasm.

Theizestooke 5y ago
Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately hard to find a copy I just found out.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  This is the kind of thing I find Archive.org and openlibrary invaluable for. In this case a quick search didn't reveal it, but Google books has a scanned copy which you can use snippet view on so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a copy somewhere on archive.org edit: hackernews regular gwern appears to have a digital copy of the book.
  - Theizestooke 5y ago
    I found a digital copy that's probably converted scanned pages, better than nothing.
    - gwern 5y ago
      Considering that Walter appears to have not sold even the first printing of it (which is why copies of it are incredibly scarce - my guess is that most of it was pulped and only a few score copies ever sold, I still don't know how FH got one), I can assure you that you are not going to find anything better than my scan, and also that it's a lot better than nothing. (Someone needs to go through it & GEoD carefully, the influence is a lot greater than Dune critics previously realized.)
      - Theizestooke 5y ago
        Thanks for your work, didn't mean to sound negative. Wasn't aware it's such a rare book.
        gwern 5y ago
        Oh yeah. I had to wait somewhere between 5 and 10 years before a copy finally surfaced online for <$120. I was terrified as I spent the $28 that the seller was going to realize what a huge pricing mistake they had made and would cancel my order (which happens occasionally), or that I'd get a different book (also happens occasionally...). Still, I scanned it myself just because getting another copy would be so hard.

Variegation 5y ago

> "how he puts together a story, constructed layers, and characters," [..] It is also a matter of involving syncretic ideas into the expanding dynamics to animate feelings fixedly and methodically. As Frank signifies, this book draws proportionately from the nature of sand, and how men (who have come to adopt religious attributions towards the climate, which begin from the autochthonous roots and expand to more complex 'felt' actions) behave in certain environmental conditions. This can be examined from the winding death of Kynes (the ecologist of Arrakis) as he comes to understand the futility of his efforts, and the fact that his planet only impassively accepted him as a submitted figure of service, a scene described as "important" for the overall significance of the story's political interpretation. """ ... about the death of the planetary ecologist in "Dune" being a very touching spot, I think you said... a very moving... Well, I felt also it was a very significant point. A lot of the story swung around this: how the ecologist died. I thought it was very important that the planet killed the ecologist. Even though he planet... I mean, even though the ecologist was technically able to subdue anything within that... Well, there he lay dying. """ With this, you can begin to see the complex symbolism of most of the characters' traits and their responses to certain conditions. I fondly remember reading, in rather vagrant patterns between pages, Dune for the sake of understanding how these different interplays of ideas paved the methods of plot construction, nearly all of which seemed necessary to some extent to portray (in story and in sensation) contention, mystery and of course the parched, suffocating desert setting. The latter, which I have quoted, resounded with me especially. In light of the sudden reinterest for the Novel, I suppose I will be reading it more carefully this time around. Another interesting point you mention is rhythm, both in meter (".. I wrote certain parts of it in haiku and other poetical forms, and then expanded them to prose to create a pace") and the progression of ideas. His slight bawdry way of describing it, these ideas arriving at a closing halt towards the end for a more evocative summarization and interpolation (satiation), even if these ideas sparsely appear in the peripheral mind after completing the novel, describes the connection quite fully. Of course, such an experience can only come from an honest reading of the work, and an appreciation of dynamics.