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> You don’t have a “right” to participate in modern society if it will make others deathly ill. Everyone who engages in any social contact with others could po

> You don’t have a “right” to participate in modern society if it will make others deathly ill. Everyone who engages in any social contact with others could potentially transmit to them a pathogen which proves lethal. This emphatically includes those who have taken the COVID-19 vaccines.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
Sure, totally! But taking this vaccine lowers the risk measurably. If everyone takes the vaccine, the risk is even smaller! What is the downside? I appear to hold an unusual in-between opinion on COVID restrictions, because I'm actually against continuing mask mandates. IMO, masks have a very clear downside: in terms of psychological well-being, the ability to see faces and reading expressions is actually incredibly important! So even if there's a public health benefit to universal masking, it's not worth the trade-off except in extremely exceptional circumstances. But vaccines? Just get vaccinated!
- perl4ever 5y ago
  >taking this vaccine lowers the risk measurably Is there really clear evidence of a meaningful effect of a booster at this point, for people not in specific categories? I assumed not, or else they would be recommending it. Personally, I got a pretty strong reaction to my second shot, and I'm not eager to experience that or worse again, nor am I sure that the severity of the reaction implies its efficacy.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    No, not right now, which is why the definition of "fully vaccinated" hasn't changed. I guess the difference between us is, I'm very confident the definition will only be changed when and if that evidence exists.
smt88 5y ago
> Everyone who engages in any social contact with others could potentially transmit to them a pathogen which proves lethal. What other pathogens are similar to Covid-19 on all of the following dimensions? - transmissibility (let's say this is equal to R number[1]) - mortality rate - hospitalization rate - long-term disability rate - cost of treatment - difficulty of preventing hospitalization I don't know of any disease that's similar. When you take the vaccine, your risk of hospitalization and death are dramatically reduced, and you're much less likely to give it to someone else. > This emphatically includes those who have taken the COVID-19 vaccines. Yes, but degrees matter here. Risk is fine and a part of life. Being unvaccinated is an unnecessary risk to yourself and others. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52473523 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52473523 2. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-l...
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > Being unvaccinated is an unnecessary risk to yourself and others. Who decides what is unnecessary? You? On what kind of authority?
accrual 5y ago
Just playing devil's advocate. Isn't the "spirit" of the parent comment saying: because we have a free and accessible way to reduce the transmission of pathogens, excluding yourself from it for non-medical reasons should have some consequence for you? One +1 point for scenarios like polio, where it's been virtually eliminated in the US by way of successful vaccination programs. [0] One -1 point for scenarios like influenza, which despite still causing many deaths per year, receiving a flu shot is encouraged but not required. [1] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  But almost no one is "excluding themselves for non-medical reasons." They're excluding themselves because they're at very low risk from Covid, the adverse event rate for these vaccines is about 30-50 times those of the flu shot, and they have no long-term safety data. Before the stops were pulled out for Covid, previous attempts at using these platforms foundered because waning effectiveness necessitated repeat dosing (hmmm...) and cumulative toxic effects were observed over time (hmmmmmmmm...)
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    > Before the stops were pulled out for Covid, previous attempts at using these platforms foundered because waning effectiveness necessitated repeat dosing (hmmm...) and cumulative toxic effects were observed over time (hmmmmmmmm...) Could you please share more information on this?
    - native_samples 5y ago
      e.g. https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/ https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > a free and accessible way I didn't know the vaccine was free. I'm glad to learn that Pfizer is not making any money on all this.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

Sure, totally! But taking this vaccine lowers the risk measurably. If everyone takes the vaccine, the risk is even smaller! What is the downside? I appear to hold an unusual in-between opinion on COVID restrictions, because I'm actually against continuing mask mandates. IMO, masks have a very clear downside: in terms of psychological well-being, the ability to see faces and reading expressions is actually incredibly important! So even if there's a public health benefit to universal masking, it's not worth the trade-off except in extremely exceptional circumstances. But vaccines? Just get vaccinated!

perl4ever 5y ago
>taking this vaccine lowers the risk measurably Is there really clear evidence of a meaningful effect of a booster at this point, for people not in specific categories? I assumed not, or else they would be recommending it. Personally, I got a pretty strong reaction to my second shot, and I'm not eager to experience that or worse again, nor am I sure that the severity of the reaction implies its efficacy.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  No, not right now, which is why the definition of "fully vaccinated" hasn't changed. I guess the difference between us is, I'm very confident the definition will only be changed when and if that evidence exists.

smt88 5y ago

> Everyone who engages in any social contact with others could potentially transmit to them a pathogen which proves lethal. What other pathogens are similar to Covid-19 on all of the following dimensions? - transmissibility (let's say this is equal to R number[1]) - mortality rate - hospitalization rate - long-term disability rate - cost of treatment - difficulty of preventing hospitalization I don't know of any disease that's similar. When you take the vaccine, your risk of hospitalization and death are dramatically reduced, and you're much less likely to give it to someone else. > This emphatically includes those who have taken the COVID-19 vaccines. Yes, but degrees matter here. Risk is fine and a part of life. Being unvaccinated is an unnecessary risk to yourself and others. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52473523 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52473523 2. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-l...

ekianjo 5y ago
> Being unvaccinated is an unnecessary risk to yourself and others. Who decides what is unnecessary? You? On what kind of authority?

accrual 5y ago

Just playing devil's advocate. Isn't the "spirit" of the parent comment saying: because we have a free and accessible way to reduce the transmission of pathogens, excluding yourself from it for non-medical reasons should have some consequence for you? One +1 point for scenarios like polio, where it's been virtually eliminated in the US by way of successful vaccination programs. [0] One -1 point for scenarios like influenza, which despite still causing many deaths per year, receiving a flu shot is encouraged but not required. [1] [0] https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html [1] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

AndrewBissell 5y ago
But almost no one is "excluding themselves for non-medical reasons." They're excluding themselves because they're at very low risk from Covid, the adverse event rate for these vaccines is about 30-50 times those of the flu shot, and they have no long-term safety data. Before the stops were pulled out for Covid, previous attempts at using these platforms foundered because waning effectiveness necessitated repeat dosing (hmmm...) and cumulative toxic effects were observed over time (hmmmmmmmm...)
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  > Before the stops were pulled out for Covid, previous attempts at using these platforms foundered because waning effectiveness necessitated repeat dosing (hmmm...) and cumulative toxic effects were observed over time (hmmmmmmmm...) Could you please share more information on this?
  - native_samples 5y ago
    e.g. https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/ https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/
ekianjo 5y ago
> a free and accessible way I didn't know the vaccine was free. I'm glad to learn that Pfizer is not making any money on all this.