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The chain of things that has to happen for this to work is implausible: 1. The device has to record the things used by the always on mics listening for wake

The chain of things that has to happen for this to work is implausible: 1. The device has to record the things used by the always on mics listening for wake words somewhere, without any other developers figuring this out and sharing how it is done. 2. Apps, using a background task, have to monitor those recordings, run speech recognition, and pick out key words, without anyone identifying this process. 3. The apps then have send those keywords back to the ad network, without anyone ever sniffing the network traffic and seeing this process. Other methods are similarly implausible, for example it is unlikely the ad networks would be able to get the audio off of the device for cloud (instead of local recognition) without researchers noticing. The only method that I buy for this is that open apps have a way to turn on the mic without the OS notification that the mic is on and share it while the app is open. This is still pretty unlikely (would not be hard to sniff for example), but more than the other options at least.

bryans 5y ago
That's not how any of these things work, at all. Much in the same way that Facebook and WhatsApp already hash direct messages and compare them to hashes of ad key phrases known to be effective, both audio and video can be hashed at the device level and sent as comparatively small strings, rather than large buffers of media. This can happen while the device is offline, and they can be easily sent along with routine data, which wouldn't even look out of place. Speech recognition doesn't even need to enter the equation at any point.
- eightysixfour 5y ago
  Using some sort of hash instead of transcribing the speech doesn’t change any of the things I listed that make this implausible. There would need to be a background service that has access to the mic without using the official APIs (which show a mic notification) that somehow no one has been able to find for the 5+ years that people have been claiming this is happening. The truth for all of these is probably that we are boring and predictable combined with some version of the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon.
  - bryans 5y ago
    I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it does not need to be a background service that's subverting a sandbox. It just needs to be a running app that has been given microphone permissions. Zoom and even basic voice memo apps, for example, can capture and send audio just fine even while another app is in focus, and can do so without displaying a microphone icon of any sort within the OS UI. Most people blindly install applications with whichever permissions are requested, and the typical social media user won't ever be intentionally force stopping the app when they're done checking it, so they are always effectively running in the background -- presuming that some battery optimization hasn't kicked in. Facebook and others are very overzealous about their default permissions, and that inarguably, absolutely, 1,000% gives them the technical ability to do whatever they want with your microphone while the app is running, and their user agreement allows them to do anything they want with anything they capture from any source. So, with all of that in mind, it is completely reasonable to expect that audio recordings could be hashed locally and sent as routine API data without it being at all obvious. I'm not necessarily saying that past research into these claims had the wrong conclusions, but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs, and aren't afraid to collude[0] with each other to make those invasions happen without public pushback. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28967575 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28967575
    - eightysixfour 5y ago
      There's not a 3rd party app on my iPhone that accesses the mic that does not show the microphone notification. Zoom shows the recording icon when open in the background. > but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs I'm not being naïve and I don't have a facebook for the reasons you mention. My problem is that you're making alot of assertions with no backing and suggesting something that is extremely unlikely is true, so the burden of proof is on you to show that it happens or, at least, how it could happen. Right now, I think it is highly unreasonable that the social apps are using exploits to gain access to the microphone without the OS being aware. Not to mention the challenge of hashing messy, real world audio for keywords.

bryans 5y ago

That's not how any of these things work, at all. Much in the same way that Facebook and WhatsApp already hash direct messages and compare them to hashes of ad key phrases known to be effective, both audio and video can be hashed at the device level and sent as comparatively small strings, rather than large buffers of media. This can happen while the device is offline, and they can be easily sent along with routine data, which wouldn't even look out of place. Speech recognition doesn't even need to enter the equation at any point.

eightysixfour 5y ago
Using some sort of hash instead of transcribing the speech doesn’t change any of the things I listed that make this implausible. There would need to be a background service that has access to the mic without using the official APIs (which show a mic notification) that somehow no one has been able to find for the 5+ years that people have been claiming this is happening. The truth for all of these is probably that we are boring and predictable combined with some version of the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon.
- bryans 5y ago
  I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it does not need to be a background service that's subverting a sandbox. It just needs to be a running app that has been given microphone permissions. Zoom and even basic voice memo apps, for example, can capture and send audio just fine even while another app is in focus, and can do so without displaying a microphone icon of any sort within the OS UI. Most people blindly install applications with whichever permissions are requested, and the typical social media user won't ever be intentionally force stopping the app when they're done checking it, so they are always effectively running in the background -- presuming that some battery optimization hasn't kicked in. Facebook and others are very overzealous about their default permissions, and that inarguably, absolutely, 1,000% gives them the technical ability to do whatever they want with your microphone while the app is running, and their user agreement allows them to do anything they want with anything they capture from any source. So, with all of that in mind, it is completely reasonable to expect that audio recordings could be hashed locally and sent as routine API data without it being at all obvious. I'm not necessarily saying that past research into these claims had the wrong conclusions, but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs, and aren't afraid to collude[0] with each other to make those invasions happen without public pushback. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28967575 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28967575
  - eightysixfour 5y ago
    There's not a 3rd party app on my iPhone that accesses the mic that does not show the microphone notification. Zoom shows the recording icon when open in the background. > but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs I'm not being naïve and I don't have a facebook for the reasons you mention. My problem is that you're making alot of assertions with no backing and suggesting something that is extremely unlikely is true, so the burden of proof is on you to show that it happens or, at least, how it could happen. Right now, I think it is highly unreasonable that the social apps are using exploits to gain access to the microphone without the OS being aware. Not to mention the challenge of hashing messy, real world audio for keywords.