3 ms·

I’ll not even go into the specific comparisons you made, that are completely unjustified. But we can very simply state that masks are not an experiment performe

I’ll not even go into the specific comparisons you made, that are completely unjustified. But we can very simply state that masks are not an experiment performed on unsuspecting people. Surgeons do this for a long, long time. It’s fine. It works. There is no relation whatsoever to the other cases you brought up. Concerning shoes/ shirt /service: sure, that’s not federally mandated. But masks for the most part weren’t either. It’s private companies that choose to have this policy, yet it somehow is now presented as something fundamentally different from other, private, clothing rules? That’s ridiculous. The HUGE difference is, that with COVID, the people not following science, common sense, or decency now actually kill other people. And while I absolutely respect your right to meet with others and infect each other, I absolutely disagree with the assertion that you somehow have the right to kill me or others.

gavinhoward 5y ago
> I absolutely disagree with the assertion that you somehow have the right to kill me or others. Prove that they are the ones "killing" others. That's the problem: there are claims with no proof. People who don't want to be infected by others can social distance, right? You can only be infected if you are close enough to someone who is infected. Stay away from those people. Actually, the funny thing is that vaccinated people can still get infected, but they are more likely to be asymptomatic. So they are more likely to be out and about infecting people without knowing it. And that's why I want proof that those who are unvaccinated are spreading the virus. For all we know, it could be the vaccinated.
- nautilius 5y ago
  > “ Prove that they are the ones "killing" others. That's the problem: there are claims with no proof” You may want to read up on what a disease is, and how it spreads. We know this since Pasteur and Semmelweis.
  - gavinhoward 5y ago
    If people didn't want to die, they could just stay locked down, right? They are choosing to expose themselves by going out in public, so we could say that they are killing themselves. If you insist they must have the right to go out in public, why are you demanding that those who are unvaccinated not have that right, especially when the vaccinated can still spread the virus? And that brings up another point: you never did answer for the fact that it could be the vaccinated spreading the virus. What if they are the ones "killing" people? What then? That's why I want proof. To me, it seems that all you're doing is trying to spin a narrative. It's not really working. At least for me. Honestly, all of your arguments feel disingenuous. Some feel downright negative and presented in bad faith.
salawat 5y ago
>But masks for the most part weren’t either. It’s private companies that choose to have this policy, yet it somehow is now presented as something fundamentally different from other, private, clothing rules? Ah... But the masks were mandated by local governments. To the point where people of color were frightened because of pre-existing anti-mask laws, which were historically used to provide a mechanism for selective enforcement against minorities. Yes. That happened. New York was one such state, Oregon I think was another https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/states-with-anti-mask-laws https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/states-with... This alone elevates it above the realm of no shirt, no shoes, no service, or other dress codes, which never had force of paw in the first place. This is also why I brought up the post-script note in my original post; after a certain point, tight collusion or commonality in policy enforcement by privately owned business starts to look an awful lot like de-facto public policy. >The HUGE difference is, that with COVID, the people not following science, common sense, or decency now actually kill other people. So when are we going to start holding everyone accountable for the use of child labor by suppliers for Nabisco/Nestle? I'm bringing this up not as whataboutism, but to illustrate that the length of the chain of blame in who killed who is itself a political question, and taken to it's terminus says everyone who supports Nestle supports use of child labor in Africa. Now don't get me wrong here; I wear masks if for no other reason than I know it makes others more comfortable, but I do find I resonate with the camp of people against public health measures being anything but voluntary, I find that ethically speaking it puts medicine in a bad spot to do it any other way. >I absolutely disagree with the assertion that you somehow have the right to kill me or others. Never asserted I had that right tbqh, but I do wish to point something out: nowhere do you have a "right to safety from others." The closest you've got is an explicit right to the pursuit of happiness, which to you happiness may include safety from others; you are not guaranteed that, but you are guaranteed the freedom to pursue it. Just as those with a contrary definition are guaranteed the freedom to pursue theirs. That's the fundamental problem with your assertion. You assert I must have the right to do it, and I'm infringing on a negative sense right you have. The reality is we're both hypothetically just pursuing our own definition of happiness. Somebody comes in without a mask? You're free to relocate. You the proprietor? To a point, you're free to to refuse service. Welcome to why America was dubbed "land of the free, home of the brave", and why there are phrases like "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance". Law, rights, etc are explicitly minimally carved/spelled out. It's intended details get worked out not necessarily in the political arena, but betwixt ourselves as reasonable people. With that comes the responsibility to do things sometimes you don't want or have to do, but also to accept that that thing you really want isn't okay to just force on other people. If we value liberty, some sacrifice will need to be made. The thing about public policy though, is that once made (remember those anti-mask laws?) it is infrequently repealed. Again. Nice things. We cannot have. Because this sort of thing.

gavinhoward 5y ago

> I absolutely disagree with the assertion that you somehow have the right to kill me or others. Prove that they are the ones "killing" others. That's the problem: there are claims with no proof. People who don't want to be infected by others can social distance, right? You can only be infected if you are close enough to someone who is infected. Stay away from those people. Actually, the funny thing is that vaccinated people can still get infected, but they are more likely to be asymptomatic. So they are more likely to be out and about infecting people without knowing it. And that's why I want proof that those who are unvaccinated are spreading the virus. For all we know, it could be the vaccinated.

nautilius 5y ago
> “ Prove that they are the ones "killing" others. That's the problem: there are claims with no proof” You may want to read up on what a disease is, and how it spreads. We know this since Pasteur and Semmelweis.
- gavinhoward 5y ago
  If people didn't want to die, they could just stay locked down, right? They are choosing to expose themselves by going out in public, so we could say that they are killing themselves. If you insist they must have the right to go out in public, why are you demanding that those who are unvaccinated not have that right, especially when the vaccinated can still spread the virus? And that brings up another point: you never did answer for the fact that it could be the vaccinated spreading the virus. What if they are the ones "killing" people? What then? That's why I want proof. To me, it seems that all you're doing is trying to spin a narrative. It's not really working. At least for me. Honestly, all of your arguments feel disingenuous. Some feel downright negative and presented in bad faith.

salawat 5y ago

>But masks for the most part weren’t either. It’s private companies that choose to have this policy, yet it somehow is now presented as something fundamentally different from other, private, clothing rules? Ah... But the masks were mandated by local governments. To the point where people of color were frightened because of pre-existing anti-mask laws, which were historically used to provide a mechanism for selective enforcement against minorities. Yes. That happened. New York was one such state, Oregon I think was another https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/states-with-anti-mask-laws https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/states-with... This alone elevates it above the realm of no shirt, no shoes, no service, or other dress codes, which never had force of paw in the first place. This is also why I brought up the post-script note in my original post; after a certain point, tight collusion or commonality in policy enforcement by privately owned business starts to look an awful lot like de-facto public policy. >The HUGE difference is, that with COVID, the people not following science, common sense, or decency now actually kill other people. So when are we going to start holding everyone accountable for the use of child labor by suppliers for Nabisco/Nestle? I'm bringing this up not as whataboutism, but to illustrate that the length of the chain of blame in who killed who is itself a political question, and taken to it's terminus says everyone who supports Nestle supports use of child labor in Africa. Now don't get me wrong here; I wear masks if for no other reason than I know it makes others more comfortable, but I do find I resonate with the camp of people against public health measures being anything but voluntary, I find that ethically speaking it puts medicine in a bad spot to do it any other way. >I absolutely disagree with the assertion that you somehow have the right to kill me or others. Never asserted I had that right tbqh, but I do wish to point something out: nowhere do you have a "right to safety from others." The closest you've got is an explicit right to the pursuit of happiness, which to you happiness may include safety from others; you are not guaranteed that, but you are guaranteed the freedom to pursue it. Just as those with a contrary definition are guaranteed the freedom to pursue theirs. That's the fundamental problem with your assertion. You assert I must have the right to do it, and I'm infringing on a negative sense right you have. The reality is we're both hypothetically just pursuing our own definition of happiness. Somebody comes in without a mask? You're free to relocate. You the proprietor? To a point, you're free to to refuse service. Welcome to why America was dubbed "land of the free, home of the brave", and why there are phrases like "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance". Law, rights, etc are explicitly minimally carved/spelled out. It's intended details get worked out not necessarily in the political arena, but betwixt ourselves as reasonable people. With that comes the responsibility to do things sometimes you don't want or have to do, but also to accept that that thing you really want isn't okay to just force on other people. If we value liberty, some sacrifice will need to be made. The thing about public policy though, is that once made (remember those anti-mask laws?) it is infrequently repealed. Again. Nice things. We cannot have. Because this sort of thing.