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Zoning laws prevent stacking containers more than 2 high. FFS. Zoning as practiced in the US may be the most pervasive, banal evil in the country. It kills our

Zoning laws prevent stacking containers more than 2 high. FFS. Zoning as practiced in the US may be the most pervasive, banal evil in the country. It kills our GDP[1], is a major driver of racial inequity[2], increases wealth inequality[3], and creates car-dependency which has horrible public health impacts[4]. Yet somehow nearly no one in America is aware of this or concerned about it. I wish I understood why that is. But I’m not surprised to learn that LA area land use regulation is a major contributor to the dysfunction at the port. 1. https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/mac.20170388 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/mac.20170388 2. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/9/18/the-local-case-for-reparations https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/9/18/the-local-case... 3. https://www.cato.org/blog/housing-wealth-inequality https://www.cato.org/blog/housing-wealth-inequality 4. https://vtpi.org/autodep.pdf https://vtpi.org/autodep.pdf

ch4s3 5y ago
Arcane zoning rules are absolutely strangling society.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
snowwrestler 5y ago
This is not a zoning problem, because the zoning laws have been in place for decades, while the port worked fine. There is another root cause at work here. Temporarily suspending the zoning is just one of many short-term treatments to resolve a backlog.
Asooka 5y ago
Some form of zoning must exist because you don't want people living next to an incinerator power plant for instance, but like any good thing, it can be taken to an extreme and micromanaged into evil.
- burlesona 5y ago
  That’s not really true. It’s perfectly possible to directly regulate, prohibit and/or tax nuisances and externalities directly without zoning.
  - downut 5y ago
    But the key is who regulates, prohibits, etc. If that power is local, NIMBY always wins. These decisions must be made at the state level. Cities are way too fractured into myriad municipalities competing for jobs and "quality" housing.
    - 8note 5y ago
      The power is with rich locals. I'd assume state power is with the same rich folks, so it's still NIMBY, but the state can force it on poor locals. Woooo
  - b112 5y ago
    If you tax unequally, depending upon location, then that's just zoning with another name, except the rich can ignore it.
  - cracell 5y ago
    Ok. So basically zoning but pretending it's not called zoning.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      No, since this alternative allows for an apartment building with a couple of shops on the ground floor (normal in most of the world), and any other reasonable mixed development. No one is suggesting heavy industry should be allowed in a residential area.
      - seoaeu 5y ago
        A set of local laws that says "heavy industry isn't allowed in residential areas" is a zoning code
sushsjsuauahab 5y ago
Well, I would be pretty angry if someone built a gigantic apartment complex next to my normal house, since I bought it on the impression I would not have that as a neighbor
- gtirloni 5y ago
  You should have bought a considerable amount of land next to your property too then. Just like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg. I'm sure no one would complain about that since, you know, it'd be yours and not someone else's.
  - nrmitchi 5y ago
    I'm not here to defend unnecessary zoning restrictions, but your argument here is that the right to not be affected by the externalities of someone else's decisions should be limited to the uber-wealthy?. It's completely reasonable to believe that a given person should be capable of quiet enjoyment of their property without having to purchase everything remotely close to it.
    - ladon86 5y ago
      If you want to live in a very desirable area and you also want to have very few neighbors, you should have to pay for that luxury. Right now that luxury is effectively subsidized for a few people who are “grandfathered in”, thanks to the market distortion created by zoning.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      Why should somebody be allowed to keep others out of property that they are not paying for. I find your contention competent wrong on all counts.
      - nrmitchi 5y ago
        That cuts both ways; why should somebody be allowed to induce a negative impact on property that they are not paying for?
throwaway984393 5y ago
> Yet somehow nearly no one in America is aware of this or concerned about it. I wish I understood why that is. Because people love zoning! NIMBY is the rallying cry at zoning board hearings, where whiny people who only care about themselves make sure those Chinese people don't put their stinky laundromats near our nice rich white neighborhood. It's the main reason zoning exists! Particularly the wealthy people who have the influence to make it happen, but the casual racists of the past century, and middle class yuppies of the past half century, have plenty to answer for. But it's also clear that bad zoning (like the 2-stack rule) is also an artifact of poor system maintenance. When you design a system, you may put in certain constraints for safety. Over time the system changes, but the entire design and its constraints are not re-evaluated for each change. So eventually you have constraints that are completely out of whack with the current state. Doesn't matter if it's zoning or a microservice architecture, you're going to end up with crappy legacy rules that only get re-evaluated when things break.
- mlindner 5y ago
  Why blame the rich people rather than the system that allows them to abuse it? Rich people will always exist. The solution is to make it so that abuse is not possible. One possibility: create a state system for zoning and override every local zoning system. Let local zoning boards decide how to zone but make zoning be based on a tiered zoning system. Namely every zoning is a superset of the previous zoning. So industrial areas also allow every other type of zoning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm2xCKOCNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm2xCKOCNk
  - mulmen 5y ago
    If you disagree with current zoning laws why would you want to weaken your ability to influence them by moving the decision to the state? Delegation of power to local authority is a central concept of American democracy. Do not throw that baby out with the zoning bathwater.
    - mlindner 5y ago
      My post was actually about defining a system of zoning and forcing localities (if they want to allow zoning for industry at all) to also allow high rise housing and commercial in the same area as well. And anywhere that's zoned commercial also has to automatically allow residential. Localities can still choose how they zone, but the state sets the types of zoning possible.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cracell 5y ago
Just no. Zoning is extremely important. You should not be allowed to build a factory in the middle of a neighborhood next to a school. There are certainly bad zoning laws but to say they are all bad is just ignorant nonsense.
- spenczar5 5y ago
  Why not? It sounds like you think this is obvious, but it isn’t to me. I live in an area with occasional grandfathered-in exceptions to zoning rules. There’s a cafe run out of a house, and a butcher shop run on a residential street corner between houses. And its absolutely lovely! I would have no problem with people making things (“a factory”) next to a school.
  - zzzeek 5y ago
    > I would have no problem with people making things (“a factory”) next to a school. yes you would, if it were a large plastics manufacturer bringing large amounts of truck traffic and noise pollution and spewing carcinogenic PCB compounds into local atmosphere.
    - bcrl 5y ago
      Maybe companies shouldn't be allowed to spew toxic carcinogens into the atmosphere so that wouldn't matter?
      - zzzeek 5y ago
        how about a landfill. ever been to one? they smell quite awful. nothing illegal about them, and they would pretty much ruin a junior high school right next door.
        bcrl 5y ago
        And they're a horrible mistake of history that was a bad idea. The planet is a closed loop system with limited resources. Our use of those limited resources should be closed loop as well.
trinovantes 5y ago
I think the bigger issue is that our culture sees housing as an investment vehicle rather than a commodity like food. You wouldn't stockpile a warehouse full of non perishables with the expectation that they will skyrocket in price. Likewise, nobody should buy multiple houses with the expectation that they will skyrocket in price. Without this mindset, I doubt anyone would be so opposed to change zoning laws as cities grow/change
rsync 5y ago
"Yet somehow nearly no one in America is aware of this or concerned about it. I wish I understood why that is." I can't speak for everyone but in my case it is because I grew up in an impoverished community that had little to no zoning. I experienced first-hand what the built environment is and the emergent behaviors of people are when there are no rules. See, you live in a place that is nicely organized and, presumably, zoned and you think if we got rid of the zoning then everything would be just like it is now but with a few more housing units and maybe some delightful mixed light-commercial interspersed and wouldn't that be great! In reality what you get is a welding shop next to your house. And llamas. And people disconnecting from city sewer because by god they're not paying for that when their home-built septic works just as well. And Grandma died and what do we do with her horse I know we'll keep it in the front yard. If you had any exposure to anything other than nicely zoned locales you wouldn't romanticize the absence of rules.

ch4s3 5y ago

Arcane zoning rules are absolutely strangling society.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

snowwrestler 5y ago

This is not a zoning problem, because the zoning laws have been in place for decades, while the port worked fine. There is another root cause at work here. Temporarily suspending the zoning is just one of many short-term treatments to resolve a backlog.

Asooka 5y ago

Some form of zoning must exist because you don't want people living next to an incinerator power plant for instance, but like any good thing, it can be taken to an extreme and micromanaged into evil.

burlesona 5y ago
That’s not really true. It’s perfectly possible to directly regulate, prohibit and/or tax nuisances and externalities directly without zoning.
- downut 5y ago
  But the key is who regulates, prohibits, etc. If that power is local, NIMBY always wins. These decisions must be made at the state level. Cities are way too fractured into myriad municipalities competing for jobs and "quality" housing.
  - 8note 5y ago
    The power is with rich locals. I'd assume state power is with the same rich folks, so it's still NIMBY, but the state can force it on poor locals. Woooo
- b112 5y ago
  If you tax unequally, depending upon location, then that's just zoning with another name, except the rich can ignore it.
- cracell 5y ago
  Ok. So basically zoning but pretending it's not called zoning.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    No, since this alternative allows for an apartment building with a couple of shops on the ground floor (normal in most of the world), and any other reasonable mixed development. No one is suggesting heavy industry should be allowed in a residential area.
    - seoaeu 5y ago
      A set of local laws that says "heavy industry isn't allowed in residential areas" is a zoning code

sushsjsuauahab 5y ago

Well, I would be pretty angry if someone built a gigantic apartment complex next to my normal house, since I bought it on the impression I would not have that as a neighbor

gtirloni 5y ago
You should have bought a considerable amount of land next to your property too then. Just like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg. I'm sure no one would complain about that since, you know, it'd be yours and not someone else's.
- nrmitchi 5y ago
  I'm not here to defend unnecessary zoning restrictions, but your argument here is that the right to not be affected by the externalities of someone else's decisions should be limited to the uber-wealthy?. It's completely reasonable to believe that a given person should be capable of quiet enjoyment of their property without having to purchase everything remotely close to it.
  - ladon86 5y ago
    If you want to live in a very desirable area and you also want to have very few neighbors, you should have to pay for that luxury. Right now that luxury is effectively subsidized for a few people who are “grandfathered in”, thanks to the market distortion created by zoning.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    Why should somebody be allowed to keep others out of property that they are not paying for. I find your contention competent wrong on all counts.
    - nrmitchi 5y ago
      That cuts both ways; why should somebody be allowed to induce a negative impact on property that they are not paying for?

throwaway984393 5y ago

> Yet somehow nearly no one in America is aware of this or concerned about it. I wish I understood why that is. Because people love zoning! NIMBY is the rallying cry at zoning board hearings, where whiny people who only care about themselves make sure those Chinese people don't put their stinky laundromats near our nice rich white neighborhood. It's the main reason zoning exists! Particularly the wealthy people who have the influence to make it happen, but the casual racists of the past century, and middle class yuppies of the past half century, have plenty to answer for. But it's also clear that bad zoning (like the 2-stack rule) is also an artifact of poor system maintenance. When you design a system, you may put in certain constraints for safety. Over time the system changes, but the entire design and its constraints are not re-evaluated for each change. So eventually you have constraints that are completely out of whack with the current state. Doesn't matter if it's zoning or a microservice architecture, you're going to end up with crappy legacy rules that only get re-evaluated when things break.

mlindner 5y ago
Why blame the rich people rather than the system that allows them to abuse it? Rich people will always exist. The solution is to make it so that abuse is not possible. One possibility: create a state system for zoning and override every local zoning system. Let local zoning boards decide how to zone but make zoning be based on a tiered zoning system. Namely every zoning is a superset of the previous zoning. So industrial areas also allow every other type of zoning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm2xCKOCNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm2xCKOCNk
- mulmen 5y ago
  If you disagree with current zoning laws why would you want to weaken your ability to influence them by moving the decision to the state? Delegation of power to local authority is a central concept of American democracy. Do not throw that baby out with the zoning bathwater.
  - mlindner 5y ago
    My post was actually about defining a system of zoning and forcing localities (if they want to allow zoning for industry at all) to also allow high rise housing and commercial in the same area as well. And anywhere that's zoned commercial also has to automatically allow residential. Localities can still choose how they zone, but the state sets the types of zoning possible.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cracell 5y ago

Just no. Zoning is extremely important. You should not be allowed to build a factory in the middle of a neighborhood next to a school. There are certainly bad zoning laws but to say they are all bad is just ignorant nonsense.

spenczar5 5y ago
Why not? It sounds like you think this is obvious, but it isn’t to me. I live in an area with occasional grandfathered-in exceptions to zoning rules. There’s a cafe run out of a house, and a butcher shop run on a residential street corner between houses. And its absolutely lovely! I would have no problem with people making things (“a factory”) next to a school.
- zzzeek 5y ago
  > I would have no problem with people making things (“a factory”) next to a school. yes you would, if it were a large plastics manufacturer bringing large amounts of truck traffic and noise pollution and spewing carcinogenic PCB compounds into local atmosphere.
  - bcrl 5y ago
    Maybe companies shouldn't be allowed to spew toxic carcinogens into the atmosphere so that wouldn't matter?
    - zzzeek 5y ago
      how about a landfill. ever been to one? they smell quite awful. nothing illegal about them, and they would pretty much ruin a junior high school right next door.
      - bcrl 5y ago
        And they're a horrible mistake of history that was a bad idea. The planet is a closed loop system with limited resources. Our use of those limited resources should be closed loop as well.

trinovantes 5y ago

I think the bigger issue is that our culture sees housing as an investment vehicle rather than a commodity like food. You wouldn't stockpile a warehouse full of non perishables with the expectation that they will skyrocket in price. Likewise, nobody should buy multiple houses with the expectation that they will skyrocket in price. Without this mindset, I doubt anyone would be so opposed to change zoning laws as cities grow/change

rsync 5y ago

"Yet somehow nearly no one in America is aware of this or concerned about it. I wish I understood why that is." I can't speak for everyone but in my case it is because I grew up in an impoverished community that had little to no zoning. I experienced first-hand what the built environment is and the emergent behaviors of people are when there are no rules. See, you live in a place that is nicely organized and, presumably, zoned and you think if we got rid of the zoning then everything would be just like it is now but with a few more housing units and maybe some delightful mixed light-commercial interspersed and wouldn't that be great! In reality what you get is a welding shop next to your house. And llamas. And people disconnecting from city sewer because by god they're not paying for that when their home-built septic works just as well. And Grandma died and what do we do with her horse I know we'll keep it in the front yard. If you had any exposure to anything other than nicely zoned locales you wouldn't romanticize the absence of rules.