7 ms·

I think Microsofts' long-term plan is to get most developers to use cloud-based coding environments, which is not unlikely given that software stacks become mor

I think Microsofts' long-term plan is to get most developers to use cloud-based coding environments, which is not unlikely given that software stacks become more complex to the point where setting up a local development environment is really hard. Once they achieve that they're in a very good position to sell their own cloud services by making the integration into the development workflow really smooth. So their acquisition of Github and the large effort invested in VSCode as well as privileging their own software stack over competing solutions makes perfect sense, business wise. It probably won't be good for free software though.

meibo 5y ago
Setting up a local dev env is easier than ever on Windows. WSL, tooling, the new terminal, it's all there.
- frozenport 5y ago
  It was always easy, just install vs code
- MathCodeLove 5y ago
  Even easier than that: git bash and docker.
- skohan 5y ago
  Just wait until you try linux
  - kovac 5y ago
    I started off with Windows development. Later on I developed using Windows terminal and WSL. I've also done development on Mac. Then one fine day I tried Linux. It blew my mind. What is coming to Windows now is a pale imitation of what Linux has been having for decades. Amazing terminals, terminal multiplexers, tiling window managers, keyboard driven tools, package managers... I really regret those years lost.
  - jaaron 5y ago
    Ok, this comment had me actually laughing out loud. That said, the situation with W10+WSL reminds me a bit of the early days around OS X when we suddenly had a consumer grade desktop Unix experience. W10+WSL is clunkier, but trending in a decent direction.
    - alfiedotwtf 5y ago
      With Windows 11 turning people off because it's forcing TPM-only hardware for both developers and users in general, I wouldn't be surprised if Windows 11 marks the final exodus for developers leaving for Mac and Linux.
      - y4mi 5y ago
        You seem to think that devs are even able to decide what os they use... Most corps I worked at had a specific setup I was required to use, which was generally windows.
        alfiedotwtf 5y ago
        If a big corp wants devs to start building for Windows 11, they're going to have to replace all/most machines given TPM 2 is kind of new. It's further down the lock-in road, and if big corps want those handcuffs, good luck to them.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Specially anything X-Windows related, pure easy. /s
    - watermelon0 5y ago
      I think Windows/WSL2 might just be the most user friendly Linux distribution, and this includes graphics support, if you are on Win 11.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        For people like myself, that care mostly about UNIX/POSIX than Linux in particular, had Microsoft been serious about the NT POSIX subsystem, most likely Linux wouldn't have taken off as it did. I still think macOS is the most user friendly UNIX, though. As for WSL, I really don't care about it, I have been using VMWare with Linux distributions for about 10 years now.
        topkai22 5y ago
        I’ll disagree with you- Linux very much took off because it’s license is cost free and there was/is an influential FLOSS software philosophical movement.
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Sure that is why people buy macs instead of supporting Linux OEMs, and are everywhere to be seen at FOSDEM. Where are those philosophers? I would like to know where would Linux be without Intel, Compaq, IBM and Oracle's money that started being pumped around 2000. Even Wikipedia mentions it.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    Tried that for decades, why do you think I'm not macOS and Windows now?
    - app4soft 5y ago
      Because you not tried Haiku yet.
- 29athrowaway 5y ago
  Paying to digitally imprison yourself, your family and descendents for years to come is easier than ever.
- amenod 5y ago
  It might be easier than ever, but it is far easier on Linux. It shows that people developing terminal(s) on Windows are probably not Linux users - it is little things like secondary clipboard and terminals hanging that make one want to scream.
sneak 5y ago
It's not just services. The most important parts of VSCode are not free software. WSL is designed to make free software users and developers comfortable on a proprietary OS. Microsoft is also one of the biggest gaming companies in the world (via the xbox platform) and zero initiative on free software anything over there. Microsoft doesn't care at all about free software, or software freedoms. It's just a means to an end.
- germandiago 5y ago
  I think this is all true. So we should be careful in the sense of not being vendor locked-in. That said, this is also a legitimate interest. But what they did with the hot reload lately... I am not sure it is a smart move.
- Dayshine 5y ago
  > The most important parts of VSCode are not free software. What do you mean by this? The core IDE is all open source (except some closed source telemetry). The common example I see quoted is that the super-old, legacy, C# debugger is closed source, but as far as I know there is nothing stopping people writing an alternative debugger for C# in VS Code. Jetbrains did it for Rider.
  - adduc 5y ago
    Not sure what OP is referring to, but Microsoft has multiple Visual Studio Code extensions (e.g. Remote SSH) that are closed-source and hard-coded not to work with any self-compiled versions of Visual Studio Code.
  - ReleaseCandidat 5y ago
    >> The most important parts of VSCode are not free software. > What do you mean by this? The SSH remote connection stuff, the Pylance Python LSP (you are not allowed to use it - the binary - in any other editor but VS Code, not even the OSS Codium) and some other extensions are CSS. """Can I load Pylance in Code – OSS? Pylance is licensed for use in Microsoft products and services only, so can only be used on official Microsoft builds of Visual Studio Code and GitHub Codespaces.""" https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release/blob/main/FAQ.md https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release/blob/main/FAQ.m...
novok 5y ago
Basically the https://www.gitpod.io/ https://www.gitpod.io/
deanCommie 5y ago
A cloud-based coding environment doesn't really make it easier to debug your code in the cloud environment it would be executed. A development environment and a production environment are inherently different in vast ways. So even if your development environment is in the cloud, you still need a way to package your code and transfer to the environment similar to where it will run in production (whether it's bare metal, virtualized, container, or managed (e.g. serverless)) What the cloud providers are working on is making it easier and faster to continuously package transfer your development state to your prod environment. But whether you're coding in a browser or locally it doesn't accelerate the deployment path.
- lytefm 5y ago
  I feel like this is exactly where Microsoft ist aiming for with VSCode, Codespaces etc: 1. Give away the Code Editor as Open source, but make important Plugins (Python Development, Live Share,...) closed source. 2. Make the life for developers easier/ more productive by integrating cloud offerings. Oh, you're starting a python project? Use our code space for development and click here to automatically deploy it to Azure, everything correctly configured. No need to deal with Ops. 3. Make $$$ with Cloud services and enterprise tooling.
whateveracct 5y ago
There's literally no dev environment I couldn't make work in a turnkey fashion on a Linux desktop via Nix. Never will be. git clone nix-shell # get developing
- stardenburden 5y ago
  While I'm also a big fan of nix and friends, one big issue with this is that setting up databases, or in general services, with nix-shell is impossible.
  - steve-chavez 5y ago
    That's not true. For example, in PostgREST we setup a nix-shell[1] that allows us to run tests in different PostgreSQL versions(from 9.6 to 14). [1]: https://github.com/PostgREST/postgrest/tree/main/nix#working-with-nix-shell-and-the-postgrest-utility-scripts https://github.com/PostgREST/postgrest/tree/main/nix#working...
  - whateveracct 5y ago
    You can usually script the database setup and teardown and have the test suite use the same scripts you have available in a nix-shell. pg_tmp [1] also helps http://eradman.com/ephemeralpg/ http://eradman.com/ephemeralpg/
anothernewdude 5y ago
That doesn't make much sense given their cloud offerings.
garren 5y ago
I’m curious about the cloud-based coding you’ve mentioned. What I’ve seen so far is interesting, but not terribly compelling to use day to day. It has a place, certainly, such as education or possibly interviewing. What about the author’s point that VSCode competes too well with visual studio, and that MS has intentionally underfunded Omnisharp, and that their own software stack continues to be poorly supported on VSCode? The large effort in VSCode seems poorly invested if it’s used to push people to a paid product like VSCode.
nimbius 5y ago
I'd argue Microsoft's target demographic isn't companies with a cloud native focus, its companies who are desperate to get in the cloud but encumbered by old guard ideas like enterprise software, and terrified to give the insider threats they grudgingly call employees their own Linux box that isn't wsl kneecapped by GPO.

meibo 5y ago

Setting up a local dev env is easier than ever on Windows. WSL, tooling, the new terminal, it's all there.

frozenport 5y ago
It was always easy, just install vs code
MathCodeLove 5y ago
Even easier than that: git bash and docker.
skohan 5y ago
Just wait until you try linux
- kovac 5y ago
  I started off with Windows development. Later on I developed using Windows terminal and WSL. I've also done development on Mac. Then one fine day I tried Linux. It blew my mind. What is coming to Windows now is a pale imitation of what Linux has been having for decades. Amazing terminals, terminal multiplexers, tiling window managers, keyboard driven tools, package managers... I really regret those years lost.
- jaaron 5y ago
  Ok, this comment had me actually laughing out loud. That said, the situation with W10+WSL reminds me a bit of the early days around OS X when we suddenly had a consumer grade desktop Unix experience. W10+WSL is clunkier, but trending in a decent direction.
  - alfiedotwtf 5y ago
    With Windows 11 turning people off because it's forcing TPM-only hardware for both developers and users in general, I wouldn't be surprised if Windows 11 marks the final exodus for developers leaving for Mac and Linux.
    - y4mi 5y ago
      You seem to think that devs are even able to decide what os they use... Most corps I worked at had a specific setup I was required to use, which was generally windows.
      - alfiedotwtf 5y ago
        If a big corp wants devs to start building for Windows 11, they're going to have to replace all/most machines given TPM 2 is kind of new. It's further down the lock-in road, and if big corps want those handcuffs, good luck to them.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Specially anything X-Windows related, pure easy. /s
  - watermelon0 5y ago
    I think Windows/WSL2 might just be the most user friendly Linux distribution, and this includes graphics support, if you are on Win 11.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      For people like myself, that care mostly about UNIX/POSIX than Linux in particular, had Microsoft been serious about the NT POSIX subsystem, most likely Linux wouldn't have taken off as it did. I still think macOS is the most user friendly UNIX, though. As for WSL, I really don't care about it, I have been using VMWare with Linux distributions for about 10 years now.
      - topkai22 5y ago
        I’ll disagree with you- Linux very much took off because it’s license is cost free and there was/is an influential FLOSS software philosophical movement.
        pjmlp 5y ago
        Sure that is why people buy macs instead of supporting Linux OEMs, and are everywhere to be seen at FOSDEM. Where are those philosophers? I would like to know where would Linux be without Intel, Compaq, IBM and Oracle's money that started being pumped around 2000. Even Wikipedia mentions it.
- coldtea 5y ago
  Tried that for decades, why do you think I'm not macOS and Windows now?
  - app4soft 5y ago
    Because you not tried Haiku yet.
29athrowaway 5y ago
Paying to digitally imprison yourself, your family and descendents for years to come is easier than ever.
amenod 5y ago
It might be easier than ever, but it is far easier on Linux. It shows that people developing terminal(s) on Windows are probably not Linux users - it is little things like secondary clipboard and terminals hanging that make one want to scream.

sneak 5y ago

It's not just services. The most important parts of VSCode are not free software. WSL is designed to make free software users and developers comfortable on a proprietary OS. Microsoft is also one of the biggest gaming companies in the world (via the xbox platform) and zero initiative on free software anything over there. Microsoft doesn't care at all about free software, or software freedoms. It's just a means to an end.

germandiago 5y ago
I think this is all true. So we should be careful in the sense of not being vendor locked-in. That said, this is also a legitimate interest. But what they did with the hot reload lately... I am not sure it is a smart move.
Dayshine 5y ago
> The most important parts of VSCode are not free software. What do you mean by this? The core IDE is all open source (except some closed source telemetry). The common example I see quoted is that the super-old, legacy, C# debugger is closed source, but as far as I know there is nothing stopping people writing an alternative debugger for C# in VS Code. Jetbrains did it for Rider.
- adduc 5y ago
  Not sure what OP is referring to, but Microsoft has multiple Visual Studio Code extensions (e.g. Remote SSH) that are closed-source and hard-coded not to work with any self-compiled versions of Visual Studio Code.
- ReleaseCandidat 5y ago
  >> The most important parts of VSCode are not free software. > What do you mean by this? The SSH remote connection stuff, the Pylance Python LSP (you are not allowed to use it - the binary - in any other editor but VS Code, not even the OSS Codium) and some other extensions are CSS. """Can I load Pylance in Code – OSS? Pylance is licensed for use in Microsoft products and services only, so can only be used on official Microsoft builds of Visual Studio Code and GitHub Codespaces.""" https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release/blob/main/FAQ.md https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release/blob/main/FAQ.m...

novok 5y ago

Basically the https://www.gitpod.io/ https://www.gitpod.io/

deanCommie 5y ago

A cloud-based coding environment doesn't really make it easier to debug your code in the cloud environment it would be executed. A development environment and a production environment are inherently different in vast ways. So even if your development environment is in the cloud, you still need a way to package your code and transfer to the environment similar to where it will run in production (whether it's bare metal, virtualized, container, or managed (e.g. serverless)) What the cloud providers are working on is making it easier and faster to continuously package transfer your development state to your prod environment. But whether you're coding in a browser or locally it doesn't accelerate the deployment path.

lytefm 5y ago
I feel like this is exactly where Microsoft ist aiming for with VSCode, Codespaces etc: 1. Give away the Code Editor as Open source, but make important Plugins (Python Development, Live Share,...) closed source. 2. Make the life for developers easier/ more productive by integrating cloud offerings. Oh, you're starting a python project? Use our code space for development and click here to automatically deploy it to Azure, everything correctly configured. No need to deal with Ops. 3. Make $$$ with Cloud services and enterprise tooling.

whateveracct 5y ago

There's literally no dev environment I couldn't make work in a turnkey fashion on a Linux desktop via Nix. Never will be. git clone nix-shell # get developing

stardenburden 5y ago
While I'm also a big fan of nix and friends, one big issue with this is that setting up databases, or in general services, with nix-shell is impossible.
- steve-chavez 5y ago
  That's not true. For example, in PostgREST we setup a nix-shell[1] that allows us to run tests in different PostgreSQL versions(from 9.6 to 14). [1]: https://github.com/PostgREST/postgrest/tree/main/nix#working-with-nix-shell-and-the-postgrest-utility-scripts https://github.com/PostgREST/postgrest/tree/main/nix#working...
- whateveracct 5y ago
  You can usually script the database setup and teardown and have the test suite use the same scripts you have available in a nix-shell. pg_tmp [1] also helps http://eradman.com/ephemeralpg/ http://eradman.com/ephemeralpg/

anothernewdude 5y ago

That doesn't make much sense given their cloud offerings.

garren 5y ago

I’m curious about the cloud-based coding you’ve mentioned. What I’ve seen so far is interesting, but not terribly compelling to use day to day. It has a place, certainly, such as education or possibly interviewing. What about the author’s point that VSCode competes too well with visual studio, and that MS has intentionally underfunded Omnisharp, and that their own software stack continues to be poorly supported on VSCode? The large effort in VSCode seems poorly invested if it’s used to push people to a paid product like VSCode.

nimbius 5y ago

I'd argue Microsoft's target demographic isn't companies with a cloud native focus, its companies who are desperate to get in the cloud but encumbered by old guard ideas like enterprise software, and terrified to give the insider threats they grudgingly call employees their own Linux box that isn't wsl kneecapped by GPO.