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> I'm not sure fining a company billions of dollars and putting executives in jail is the outcome anyone really wants if a 17 year old uses Tinder. A provider

> I'm not sure fining a company billions of dollars and putting executives in jail is the outcome anyone really wants if a 17 year old uses Tinder. A provider offers a service is responsible to ensure it functions within the law. The "How" is the responsibility of the provider. If they can't do it, they can explicitly state they can not do so and work with the government to find constructive solutions. If they absolutely can not, it means that they have to bear the consequence of the law. If they can't accept the consequence, they can decide to shut shop.

classified 5y ago
It would be nice if things actually worked that way.
GauntletWizard 5y ago
The law is responsible for being just and reasonable, and not fining people for things they have no control over. There's no sure way to verify that a user is over 18[1], and I do believe that there's responsibility on parents to be monitoring their children - That if a 13 year old is creating accounts on over-18 websites, it is partially the parent's failing for allowing them too much unmonitored access. Quite frankly: I want 17 year olds to use Tinder, figure out how it works, and understand the problems therein. I want kids to be able to tip their toe in anonymously to adult activities. Any hard-line requirements create a nice hard line - People who have no experience with X, and people who are expected to be experts with X - And that's how you create a feeding ground for predators. 17 year olds don't have to be able to recognize that a 40-year old man who's hitting on them despite the fact the 17 year old lied about their age is not a quality catch - They have to have support networks and enough opportunity to test the waters to figure that out before they get caught in a predator's web. One of the most important tools towards that is the ability to create anonymous accounts and explore, with understanding but without consequences. [1] I won't iterate over the ways that is true, and I won't iterate over the ways that your perfect age verification is either a) broken or b) totalitarian and broken.
- jfk13 5y ago
  > Quite frankly: I want 17 year olds to use Tinder... How about 16 yr olds? 15? 13? 10? 7? Should we draw a line for "dipping their toe anonymously in adult activities" somewhere, or should that line simply not exist? Do you believe that every 13 yr old is in fact being appropriately monitored by parents? If not, should there be some safeguards to mitigate the fact that in practice this is not reliable?
  - bostik 5y ago
    > How about 16 yr olds? 15? 13? 10? 7? Should we draw a line for "dipping their toe anonymously in adult activities" somewhere [...]? Age of consent differs across countries. So yes, different countries and jurisdictions already draw a line for various adult activities. They also disagree what those lines should be and where they should be drawn. Reality is messy.
    - GauntletWizard 5y ago
      Quite frankly: that line should be parents to draw and enforce, within reason. The liability should not be on the dating sites to prevent it from happening, not should they be forgiven for ignoring it when it does happen and it's brought to their attention. I'm in the unenviable situation of having had one of my big projects shut down for precisely this reason: it's too expensive to moderate sites that kids may use. The reason for that is actually very simple, proved by data, and verboten to say.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  > There's no sure way to verify that a user is over 18 This is like a bar complaining that they shouldn’t have to check ids because counterfeits exist. You can’t serve your customers At Scale if you have to comply with those pesky laws, so maybe don’t do it at scale.
  - spaced-out 5y ago
    Disagree, people should be allowed to open up social media accounts without showing ID. Anonymous speech is important too.
cletus 5y ago
> A provider offers a service is responsible to ensure it functions within the law. This is what I like to call "engineer thinking" (and I say this as an engineer). By this I mean it's absolute. The law doesn't work that way and when it does, it tends to be terrible unjust and illogical (eg mandatory minimum sentences, three strikes laws). Here's how it actually works: because of the nature of your service users need to be able to give consent for legal reasons. It may be possible to provide such a service to under-18s but the legal compliance may be a significant amount of effort. Or it may be impossible. Already we've run into a problem because what about emancipated minors? They can, by definition, give legal consent. You may choose to ignore this corner case because it's too hard. That may be fine or it might not. You may be accused of unfairly denying services in certain segments of the population. Depending on your service, you may even run into legal trouble. Assuming you're a good actor, you make a "best effort" to comply with the age restriction. You may ask for certain personal information or even run a credit check. Certain things can only be done in person, perhaps just the first time, perhaps every time. If it ever comes up that you provided services to minors and there were legal consequences (civil or criminal), a court would ultimately look at the balance of evidence to decide if your actions were sufficient given the consequences of noncompliance, the harm you could've done and so on (note: the standards are different criminally and civilly too). So if you provide a hook up app and just ask "Are you over 18? Y/N" and have lots of profile pictures of suspiciously young people, lots of mentions of high school and so forth then it can be decided that you had a reckless disregard for your legal obligations and be fined or charged criminally. A court may also decide your actions were "reasonable" (this word comes up a lot). For example: you tried to verify them with a Facebook profile (with efforts to make sure it wasn't fake), you monitored photos and profiles for certain keywords and so on. That could satisfy your legal requirements even if it wasn't perfect. It's the difference between a bank who sometimes unknowingly facilitates criminal financial transactions vs a bank that has flagrant disregard for the law. There are banks that will charge you 15-20% for a wire transfer, for example. No legitimate customer would ever pay that. It's clearly aimed at people who don't want any questions or scrutiny. This will land you in jail. The first won't.
- tchalla 5y ago
  > This is what I like to call "engineer thinking" (and I say this as an engineer). By this I mean it's absolute. Ironically, you called my thinking as absolute and went ahead to do the very same thing you called "Engineer Thinking". Nothing in my comment above contradicts your comment. Your effort to explain HOW in detail is admirable. However, I wish you hadn't created a label on my way of thinking. It doesn't help a discussion.
908B64B197 5y ago
My car isn't supposed to be driven by someone without a license. It's kept locked when not in use. Yet, that might not stop a 17 years old without a license from stealing my keys and taking it for a joy ride. Should we then outlaw cars since evidently it doesn't function within the law? These kids are violating the ToS.
- JeremyNT 5y ago
  While I love a good car analogy as much as the next person this really doesn't fly. First of all, the TOS click through flow is more like leaving a car running, unlocked, and adding a piece of masking tape that says "please don't drive me" on the door handle. TOS operate entirely on the honor system. Second, you have no incentive for random children to come drive your car. For the tech giants, more users are great! So their incentives here are all in favor of letting kids sign up and doing the bare minimum to try and prevent this required to appease regulators.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > is more like leaving a car running, unlocked It's still unlawfull to enter it and drive it, at least in America. "Your honor, the car was asking for it".
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
In tech, we’ve gone so far from manual work that we’ve all forgotten what’s possible. If you run a bar and let in a 14 year old, you’re responsible for that. If you decide to automate your work, you are not in any way absolved of that responsibility just because it might be impossible to automate with the same level of reliability as doing it by hand. In other words, doing the very best that’s possible doesn’t count for shit if it’s impossible to do what you have to do. Because it’s always possible to comply, just not always possible to do it digitally. Tough shit. Then don’t do it digitally.

classified 5y ago

It would be nice if things actually worked that way.

GauntletWizard 5y ago

The law is responsible for being just and reasonable, and not fining people for things they have no control over. There's no sure way to verify that a user is over 18[1], and I do believe that there's responsibility on parents to be monitoring their children - That if a 13 year old is creating accounts on over-18 websites, it is partially the parent's failing for allowing them too much unmonitored access. Quite frankly: I want 17 year olds to use Tinder, figure out how it works, and understand the problems therein. I want kids to be able to tip their toe in anonymously to adult activities. Any hard-line requirements create a nice hard line - People who have no experience with X, and people who are expected to be experts with X - And that's how you create a feeding ground for predators. 17 year olds don't have to be able to recognize that a 40-year old man who's hitting on them despite the fact the 17 year old lied about their age is not a quality catch - They have to have support networks and enough opportunity to test the waters to figure that out before they get caught in a predator's web. One of the most important tools towards that is the ability to create anonymous accounts and explore, with understanding but without consequences. [1] I won't iterate over the ways that is true, and I won't iterate over the ways that your perfect age verification is either a) broken or b) totalitarian and broken.

jfk13 5y ago
> Quite frankly: I want 17 year olds to use Tinder... How about 16 yr olds? 15? 13? 10? 7? Should we draw a line for "dipping their toe anonymously in adult activities" somewhere, or should that line simply not exist? Do you believe that every 13 yr old is in fact being appropriately monitored by parents? If not, should there be some safeguards to mitigate the fact that in practice this is not reliable?
- bostik 5y ago
  > How about 16 yr olds? 15? 13? 10? 7? Should we draw a line for "dipping their toe anonymously in adult activities" somewhere [...]? Age of consent differs across countries. So yes, different countries and jurisdictions already draw a line for various adult activities. They also disagree what those lines should be and where they should be drawn. Reality is messy.
  - GauntletWizard 5y ago
    Quite frankly: that line should be parents to draw and enforce, within reason. The liability should not be on the dating sites to prevent it from happening, not should they be forgiven for ignoring it when it does happen and it's brought to their attention. I'm in the unenviable situation of having had one of my big projects shut down for precisely this reason: it's too expensive to moderate sites that kids may use. The reason for that is actually very simple, proved by data, and verboten to say.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
> There's no sure way to verify that a user is over 18 This is like a bar complaining that they shouldn’t have to check ids because counterfeits exist. You can’t serve your customers At Scale if you have to comply with those pesky laws, so maybe don’t do it at scale.
- spaced-out 5y ago
  Disagree, people should be allowed to open up social media accounts without showing ID. Anonymous speech is important too.

cletus 5y ago

> A provider offers a service is responsible to ensure it functions within the law. This is what I like to call "engineer thinking" (and I say this as an engineer). By this I mean it's absolute. The law doesn't work that way and when it does, it tends to be terrible unjust and illogical (eg mandatory minimum sentences, three strikes laws). Here's how it actually works: because of the nature of your service users need to be able to give consent for legal reasons. It may be possible to provide such a service to under-18s but the legal compliance may be a significant amount of effort. Or it may be impossible. Already we've run into a problem because what about emancipated minors? They can, by definition, give legal consent. You may choose to ignore this corner case because it's too hard. That may be fine or it might not. You may be accused of unfairly denying services in certain segments of the population. Depending on your service, you may even run into legal trouble. Assuming you're a good actor, you make a "best effort" to comply with the age restriction. You may ask for certain personal information or even run a credit check. Certain things can only be done in person, perhaps just the first time, perhaps every time. If it ever comes up that you provided services to minors and there were legal consequences (civil or criminal), a court would ultimately look at the balance of evidence to decide if your actions were sufficient given the consequences of noncompliance, the harm you could've done and so on (note: the standards are different criminally and civilly too). So if you provide a hook up app and just ask "Are you over 18? Y/N" and have lots of profile pictures of suspiciously young people, lots of mentions of high school and so forth then it can be decided that you had a reckless disregard for your legal obligations and be fined or charged criminally. A court may also decide your actions were "reasonable" (this word comes up a lot). For example: you tried to verify them with a Facebook profile (with efforts to make sure it wasn't fake), you monitored photos and profiles for certain keywords and so on. That could satisfy your legal requirements even if it wasn't perfect. It's the difference between a bank who sometimes unknowingly facilitates criminal financial transactions vs a bank that has flagrant disregard for the law. There are banks that will charge you 15-20% for a wire transfer, for example. No legitimate customer would ever pay that. It's clearly aimed at people who don't want any questions or scrutiny. This will land you in jail. The first won't.

tchalla 5y ago
> This is what I like to call "engineer thinking" (and I say this as an engineer). By this I mean it's absolute. Ironically, you called my thinking as absolute and went ahead to do the very same thing you called "Engineer Thinking". Nothing in my comment above contradicts your comment. Your effort to explain HOW in detail is admirable. However, I wish you hadn't created a label on my way of thinking. It doesn't help a discussion.

908B64B197 5y ago

My car isn't supposed to be driven by someone without a license. It's kept locked when not in use. Yet, that might not stop a 17 years old without a license from stealing my keys and taking it for a joy ride. Should we then outlaw cars since evidently it doesn't function within the law? These kids are violating the ToS.

JeremyNT 5y ago
While I love a good car analogy as much as the next person this really doesn't fly. First of all, the TOS click through flow is more like leaving a car running, unlocked, and adding a piece of masking tape that says "please don't drive me" on the door handle. TOS operate entirely on the honor system. Second, you have no incentive for random children to come drive your car. For the tech giants, more users are great! So their incentives here are all in favor of letting kids sign up and doing the bare minimum to try and prevent this required to appease regulators.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > is more like leaving a car running, unlocked It's still unlawfull to enter it and drive it, at least in America. "Your honor, the car was asking for it".

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago

In tech, we’ve gone so far from manual work that we’ve all forgotten what’s possible. If you run a bar and let in a 14 year old, you’re responsible for that. If you decide to automate your work, you are not in any way absolved of that responsibility just because it might be impossible to automate with the same level of reliability as doing it by hand. In other words, doing the very best that’s possible doesn’t count for shit if it’s impossible to do what you have to do. Because it’s always possible to comply, just not always possible to do it digitally. Tough shit. Then don’t do it digitally.