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Maybe I'll go through it if I have time but there are several other things that are really wrong or misleading in the article, it's a research project in itself

by md8z 5y ago

Maybe I'll go through it if I have time but there are several other things that are really wrong or misleading in the article, it's a research project in itself to correct all the misinformation there. (A lot of the article is mostly correct though so it's probably an even worse situation for a reader) Also a huge part of it is that the author is asking for things that don't really make sense e.g. "Wayland does not provide a basic universal unified graphical toolkit/API (and Wayland developers will not implement it) akin to Win32" Wayland sits at a level below the toolkit, it is an implementation detail in the toolkit. You're supposed to build toolkits on top of it. It wouldn't be feasible (or even wanted) to move the toolkit inside Wayland. A lot of these other criticisms are along these lines, i.e. a misunderstanding of what Wayland actually is. That bug report that was filed is not even actionable because of this. Also edit: Sorry, I just noticed you're the author, you could mention that :) I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but that whole part needs to be rewritten I think, because basically everything in it stems from a major misconception and is not constructive feedback because of that. I am actually in agreement with your thesis though, the "Linux desktop" (whatever collection of random 1000 git repositories that refers to this week) is pretty flawed. And Wayland definitely is flawed too, just not in any of the ways that were mentioned.

itvision 5y ago
> there are several other things that are really wrong or misleading in the article When I see generalization about a ton of stuff I instantly get suspicious about such claims. The article cannot be as wrong as you're trying hard to portray it. > it's a research project in itself to correct all the misinformation there You're really a fan of "misinformation". Sorry, the guy who wrote it, has been using Linux for more than two decades and is trying to be as unbiased and factual as possible. Looks like you're just too invested in Linux and you've been personally shaken that such an article even exists in the first place. > Wayland sits at a level below the toolkit, it is an implementation detail in the toolkit. You're supposed to build toolkits on top of it. It wouldn't be feasible (or even wanted) to move the toolkit inside Wayland. What's wrong with this claim exactly? You're not disproving it in the slightest, you are _explaining_ why it has been done the way it's been done. Most people don't give a damn about it. Most 32bit Windows applications continue to run in Windows 11 26 years later. Linux, be it X11, Wayland or Mir, has no alternative to that. Yes, the author wants some LTS API for graphics, do you have anything to add to that? How does having Qt/Gnome/EFL/etc even address the issues shown in the article like inability to configure all the toolkits font rendering and other features simultaneously? Had we had a low lever API akin to Win32 which toolkits like e.g. Gnome/Qt could be built upon, that would have never been an issue, meanwhile Linux developers continue to reinvent the wheel and _not_ provide universal solutions which allow to build software on top of it which will work for decades without recompilation. You really don't see where the author comes from, yeah, Windows, where software can be developed and work for decades. Just don't start BS'ing me with "everything could be recompiled for $next versions of Gnome/Qt" - this has _not_ been the case, we've lost hundreds of GTK 1/2, Qt 1/2/3/4 applications which no one wants to port to newer toolkits. Actually please don't bother with your "refutations". I see where you're coming from and I'm sure you'll continue in the same vein which is "Linux is built differently, get used to it". I can, I have but ISVs and game developers will _not_. If you're OK with no commercial software and AAA games for Linux, absolute most average people are _not_. They want to play native games and run native Adobe/Autodesk/etc. software under Linux. I can imagine you could be content with having always incomplete layers of emulation and VMs which further prove that other OSes like Windows are built and designed better, since Win32 APIs are so easy to emulate. Had you started differently I'd have been glad to continue arguing with you but you've used the meanest and dirtiest words to describe the work put into the article which is an instant turn off and a clear indication that you might have a superiority complex.
- md8z 5y ago
  The article actually is that wrong because it stems from one faulty piece of information, I tried to mention that. Wayland is not meant to sit at the layer of the stack you're thinking it is. You could be asking for all those features in something else, but that's a different project you'd be talking about and a different project you'd need to be criticizing, not Wayland. "You're really a fan of 'misinformation'. Sorry, the guy who wrote it, has been using Linux for more than two decades and is trying to be as unbiased and factual as possible. Looks like you're just too invested in Linux and you've been personally shaken that such an article even exists in the first place." This is wrong, please avoid making these accusations of bad faith, and please do not spread this misinformation about me. That really hurts me when you do that because you are lying to my face about the thing I know most: myself. Sadly this kind of unprofessional behavior is so common in the Linux world that I think some of us have gotten used to it. But it needs to stop. I also have been using Linux for more than two decades. Linux on the desktop sucks. It's bad. I'm in total agreement with you there. It's deeply flawed in a lot of ways. "You're not disproving it in the slightest, you are _explaining_ why it has been done the way it's been done. " There's nothing to disprove here though, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying the claim doesn't make any sense, it's like saying "the Linux kernel is bad because it doesn't have a feature to do my taxes". Well yes, Linux is just a kernel. It's not tax software. If you want to use tax software you'll have to find something built for that purpose, and then if you find the tax software makes an error you could report it to the authors of it. If you tried to report it to the kernel developers they'd say sorry there's nothing we can do about that. See what I mean? Trying to make all these complaints about Wayland doesn't make sense. What you're asking for is something different entirely. "Linux, be it X11, Wayland or Mir, has no alternative to that. Yes, the author wants some LTS API for graphics, do you have anything to add to that?" Actually XWayland serves this purpose to keep old legacy apps running. Win32 API is not a good example since most modern Win32 applications are not built using the Win32 API either. But old software X11 should work just fine, if not then you should mention the particular bug you're having so that could get fixed. I'm not sure what you mean "LTS API" though, you could just ship any old version of an API you want. "You really don't see where the author comes from, yeah, Windows, where software can be developed and work for decades." No need to get defensive. I'm curious what's your experience with Docker? That's been good for me to keep old software running. "Had we had a low lever API akin to Win32 which toolkits like e.g. Gnome/Qt could be built upon" Well we did have that, it was called Xt, and those toolkits moved away from it because it was very ugly :) I get what you're saying but it sounds like you're asking for them to have developed the perfect API 20 years ago which I hope you understand is not realistic. We know all the things we know now because of the benefit of hindsight. "Just don't start BS'ing me with "everything could be recompiled for $next versions of Gnome/Qt" - this has _not_ been the case, we've lost hundreds of GTK 1/2, Qt 1/2/3/4 applications which no one wants to port to newer toolkits." You don't need to port those to newer toolkits though, you can just ship the old version. "Actually please don't bother with your 'refutations'. I see where you're coming from and I'm sure you'll continue in the same vein which is 'Linux is built differently, get used to it'." I assure you, you're wrong about me. I'm not trying to refute you, I'm trying to explain that some of these problems actually do have solutions, so that you can use it to help yourself. And the thing about misinformation is that it spreads to other people and gives them the wrong ideas too, so if we want to have any chance to stop it then we need to take responsibility ourselves. "I can, I have but ISVs and game developers will _not_. If you're OK with no commercial software and AAA games for Linux, absolute most average people are _not_. They want to play native games and run native Adobe/Autodesk/etc. software under Linux. I can imagine you could be content with having always incomplete layers of emulation and VMs which further prove that other OSes like Windows are built and designed better, since Win32 APIs are so easy to emulate." I'm in total agreement about this. The Linux APIs are a total mess and unappealing to developers. Windows has Linux beat in an extreme way. But that's not an excuse to make false or misleading statements, we still need to get our criticisms correct if we want to have a chance to fix things. Edit: In my opinion the issue with gaming is totally separate from X11/Wayland and everything else. Linux just does not have any real gaming APIs. There's Vulkan and there's SDL and then that's it. That also is something that probably needs to happen at a layer above Wayland. "Had you started differently I'd have been glad to continue arguing with you but you've used the meanest and dirtiest words to describe the work put into the article which is an instant turn off and a clear indication that you might have a superiority complex. " I don't think I'm superior to you and I'm not criticizing you as a person. You're great. However some of the things you've said aren't correct, and I do think that you, as an intelligent being, deserve to know that so you can improve your article. There's no nicer way for me to put it, nobody likes to hear that they fucked up, but sometimes we need to hear it. Please do not write these articles if you're going to get defensive and don't want to field any criticism, that is not the way to have a discourse with the community. Edit: Also you've referred to this as an argument which it isn't. I'm not interested in arguing with you, I'm interested in correcting these issues. If you knew me you would probably find that I agree with you in most areas.

by md8z 5y ago

itvision 5y ago

> there are several other things that are really wrong or misleading in the article When I see generalization about a ton of stuff I instantly get suspicious about such claims. The article cannot be as wrong as you're trying hard to portray it. > it's a research project in itself to correct all the misinformation there You're really a fan of "misinformation". Sorry, the guy who wrote it, has been using Linux for more than two decades and is trying to be as unbiased and factual as possible. Looks like you're just too invested in Linux and you've been personally shaken that such an article even exists in the first place. > Wayland sits at a level below the toolkit, it is an implementation detail in the toolkit. You're supposed to build toolkits on top of it. It wouldn't be feasible (or even wanted) to move the toolkit inside Wayland. What's wrong with this claim exactly? You're not disproving it in the slightest, you are _explaining_ why it has been done the way it's been done. Most people don't give a damn about it. Most 32bit Windows applications continue to run in Windows 11 26 years later. Linux, be it X11, Wayland or Mir, has no alternative to that. Yes, the author wants some LTS API for graphics, do you have anything to add to that? How does having Qt/Gnome/EFL/etc even address the issues shown in the article like inability to configure all the toolkits font rendering and other features simultaneously? Had we had a low lever API akin to Win32 which toolkits like e.g. Gnome/Qt could be built upon, that would have never been an issue, meanwhile Linux developers continue to reinvent the wheel and _not_ provide universal solutions which allow to build software on top of it which will work for decades without recompilation. You really don't see where the author comes from, yeah, Windows, where software can be developed and work for decades. Just don't start BS'ing me with "everything could be recompiled for $next versions of Gnome/Qt" - this has _not_ been the case, we've lost hundreds of GTK 1/2, Qt 1/2/3/4 applications which no one wants to port to newer toolkits. Actually please don't bother with your "refutations". I see where you're coming from and I'm sure you'll continue in the same vein which is "Linux is built differently, get used to it". I can, I have but ISVs and game developers will _not_. If you're OK with no commercial software and AAA games for Linux, absolute most average people are _not_. They want to play native games and run native Adobe/Autodesk/etc. software under Linux. I can imagine you could be content with having always incomplete layers of emulation and VMs which further prove that other OSes like Windows are built and designed better, since Win32 APIs are so easy to emulate. Had you started differently I'd have been glad to continue arguing with you but you've used the meanest and dirtiest words to describe the work put into the article which is an instant turn off and a clear indication that you might have a superiority complex.

md8z 5y ago
The article actually is that wrong because it stems from one faulty piece of information, I tried to mention that. Wayland is not meant to sit at the layer of the stack you're thinking it is. You could be asking for all those features in something else, but that's a different project you'd be talking about and a different project you'd need to be criticizing, not Wayland. "You're really a fan of 'misinformation'. Sorry, the guy who wrote it, has been using Linux for more than two decades and is trying to be as unbiased and factual as possible. Looks like you're just too invested in Linux and you've been personally shaken that such an article even exists in the first place." This is wrong, please avoid making these accusations of bad faith, and please do not spread this misinformation about me. That really hurts me when you do that because you are lying to my face about the thing I know most: myself. Sadly this kind of unprofessional behavior is so common in the Linux world that I think some of us have gotten used to it. But it needs to stop. I also have been using Linux for more than two decades. Linux on the desktop sucks. It's bad. I'm in total agreement with you there. It's deeply flawed in a lot of ways. "You're not disproving it in the slightest, you are _explaining_ why it has been done the way it's been done. " There's nothing to disprove here though, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying the claim doesn't make any sense, it's like saying "the Linux kernel is bad because it doesn't have a feature to do my taxes". Well yes, Linux is just a kernel. It's not tax software. If you want to use tax software you'll have to find something built for that purpose, and then if you find the tax software makes an error you could report it to the authors of it. If you tried to report it to the kernel developers they'd say sorry there's nothing we can do about that. See what I mean? Trying to make all these complaints about Wayland doesn't make sense. What you're asking for is something different entirely. "Linux, be it X11, Wayland or Mir, has no alternative to that. Yes, the author wants some LTS API for graphics, do you have anything to add to that?" Actually XWayland serves this purpose to keep old legacy apps running. Win32 API is not a good example since most modern Win32 applications are not built using the Win32 API either. But old software X11 should work just fine, if not then you should mention the particular bug you're having so that could get fixed. I'm not sure what you mean "LTS API" though, you could just ship any old version of an API you want. "You really don't see where the author comes from, yeah, Windows, where software can be developed and work for decades." No need to get defensive. I'm curious what's your experience with Docker? That's been good for me to keep old software running. "Had we had a low lever API akin to Win32 which toolkits like e.g. Gnome/Qt could be built upon" Well we did have that, it was called Xt, and those toolkits moved away from it because it was very ugly :) I get what you're saying but it sounds like you're asking for them to have developed the perfect API 20 years ago which I hope you understand is not realistic. We know all the things we know now because of the benefit of hindsight. "Just don't start BS'ing me with "everything could be recompiled for $next versions of Gnome/Qt" - this has _not_ been the case, we've lost hundreds of GTK 1/2, Qt 1/2/3/4 applications which no one wants to port to newer toolkits." You don't need to port those to newer toolkits though, you can just ship the old version. "Actually please don't bother with your 'refutations'. I see where you're coming from and I'm sure you'll continue in the same vein which is 'Linux is built differently, get used to it'." I assure you, you're wrong about me. I'm not trying to refute you, I'm trying to explain that some of these problems actually do have solutions, so that you can use it to help yourself. And the thing about misinformation is that it spreads to other people and gives them the wrong ideas too, so if we want to have any chance to stop it then we need to take responsibility ourselves. "I can, I have but ISVs and game developers will _not_. If you're OK with no commercial software and AAA games for Linux, absolute most average people are _not_. They want to play native games and run native Adobe/Autodesk/etc. software under Linux. I can imagine you could be content with having always incomplete layers of emulation and VMs which further prove that other OSes like Windows are built and designed better, since Win32 APIs are so easy to emulate." I'm in total agreement about this. The Linux APIs are a total mess and unappealing to developers. Windows has Linux beat in an extreme way. But that's not an excuse to make false or misleading statements, we still need to get our criticisms correct if we want to have a chance to fix things. Edit: In my opinion the issue with gaming is totally separate from X11/Wayland and everything else. Linux just does not have any real gaming APIs. There's Vulkan and there's SDL and then that's it. That also is something that probably needs to happen at a layer above Wayland. "Had you started differently I'd have been glad to continue arguing with you but you've used the meanest and dirtiest words to describe the work put into the article which is an instant turn off and a clear indication that you might have a superiority complex. " I don't think I'm superior to you and I'm not criticizing you as a person. You're great. However some of the things you've said aren't correct, and I do think that you, as an intelligent being, deserve to know that so you can improve your article. There's no nicer way for me to put it, nobody likes to hear that they fucked up, but sometimes we need to hear it. Please do not write these articles if you're going to get defensive and don't want to field any criticism, that is not the way to have a discourse with the community. Edit: Also you've referred to this as an argument which it isn't. I'm not interested in arguing with you, I'm interested in correcting these issues. If you knew me you would probably find that I agree with you in most areas.