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> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be s

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive around in a vehicle that records everything, stores everything, and gives opaque data access to the parent company. In this case, a parent company with a reputation for bending the rules to suit their needs. Really goes to show how much the computing privacy debate is a matter of brand loyalties and each company’s position on the hype cycle more than anything else.

mehrdada 5y ago
While Tesla knows more info about how you use or operate the car, the big piece that matters to your privacy is arguable the vehicle location and that is not at all unique to Tesla. Many (most?) vehicles produced in the last decade have a GSM modem that pretty much continuously leaks your data at least to the cellular networks, and likely the vehicle manufacturer/operator. I used to physically remove the modem from my cars were possible.
- novok 5y ago
  Why did you stop if you 'used' to do it?
  - mehrdada 5y ago
    I cannot do it on Teslas. (Or at least the trade off is undesirable)
capableweb 5y ago
I agree with your general comment, but I don't think any of those things can be classified as "personal data". How are you gonna identify a user based on values from those parameters? GDPR, while not perfect, describes "personal data" to be: > The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or one of several special characteristics, which expresses the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, commercial, cultural or social identity of these natural persons. https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/ https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/
- Retric 5y ago
  Given enough of that data you should be able to trace which roads most users drive on and where they park their car. That seems like personal data to me. Don’t forget they should have a full database of VIN numbers they can already look up a list of owners.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Fingerprinting? There is research around identifying users purely based on their keystroke patterns which are apparently fairly unique. I wouldn't be surprised if driving (and probably a lot of other activities involving physical movements) has the same potential for fingerprinting.
- ectopod 5y ago
  From the preceding paragraph: > Personal data are any information which are related to an identified or identifiable natural person. Tesla already knows who you are so any data they capture is personal data.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    > Tesla already knows who you are so any data they capture is personal data. That's not how that works. Just because IP is personal data doesn't mean that the event "user clicked on this button" is personal data...
nightski 5y ago
I've definitely been hesitant to buy a Tesla for exactly this reason. It's not clear if you can turn it off or avoid it by not using FSD either. It's a shame, would love to own one some day. But I'm guessing the option of buying a car that doesn't have this is slowly dying unfortunately. Consumers never win with this sort of stuff. The really ironic thing is that it is tied in with a more environmentally friendly car. Want to avoid being spied on? Then you need to use dirty fossil fuels.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  I will continue to repair my ‘70s and ‘80s era vehicles, because newer models that incorporate electronics are all total garbage. Reason: embedded engineer for 30 years who has worked on automotive software.
  - slt2021 5y ago
    old vehicles are very inefficient in terms of safety, fuel consumption, and exhaust gases, for this reason alone one should prefer electric or modern era ICE
    - voakbasda 5y ago
      And those extra costs are worth paying to avoid businesses that abuse their customers by making parts and service inaccessible or unaffordable, tracking their customer, and otherwise making cars more expensive and less enjoyable to own and use. And all carmakers are abusive these days, because the market has selected for that new status quo.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      Fuel consumption and carbon emissions - that very much depends. Small cars of 30-40 year ago are often very good, even better than today's models in some cases. https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/04/toyota-corolla-gas-mileage/ https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/04/toyota-corolla-gas-mile... Reasons for this are probably creeping sizes and weights and larger engines, larger tires and softer rides.
halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
Is it not a necessary condition to collect that data in order to build and refine eventual FSD? I'm not making a blanket statement about bulk data collection but in Tesla's case, that data will eventually trickle back to the consumer in the form of car upgrades.
vanilla_nut 5y ago
I feel like there's only a very small intersection between the Facebook-avoiding, home assistant-eschewing crowd and the Tesla driving crowd. Anecdotal I know, but most people I know who drive Teslas have multiple home assistants, Instagram/Facebook accounts, and little regard for personal privacy. Most people I know in the social media/home assistant avoiding crowd talk about how they wish they could buy a car with 90s tech (but 2021 safety tech) to make it simpler and cheaper to repair, since they don't care about CarPlay or Android Auto or the million "convenience" features that don't work reliably.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  My 2013 car is not particularly laden with gizmos and has been very easy to repair (no real breakdowns...).
  - wrkronmiller 5y ago
    It depends a lot on the car and the engine. If you want a high-performance engine that meets modern emissions requirements, you're probably going to be looking at EFI and turbochargers. Changing the fuel injection maps on a modern car requires something akin to rooting/flashing an Android.
    - pengaru 5y ago
      > If you want a high-performance engine that meets modern emissions requirements, you're probably going to be looking at EFI and turbochargers. Changing the fuel injection maps on a modern car requires something akin to rooting/flashing an Android. It's also federally illegal, I don't know why you've veered this thread into ease of performing illegal modifications.
      - profile53 5y ago
        Incidentally, rooting an android tablet is federally illegal too.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
This reminds me of the medical data issue. We are learning that humanity can learn a lot about how to treat diseases with enough understanding (data). It’s entirely foreseeable that level 5 FSD isn’t possible without data.
nyIXfKmM84f1OPr 5y ago
> It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive around in a vehicle that records everything, stores everything, and gives opaque data access to the parent company. How does this give anyone more data on me than is already out there based on the cellphone in my pocket and the use of my credit/debit cards? Even if Tesla didn't collect it the LTE signal of the car is enough to track me when I leave my phone at home. And if you don't have Tesla and your car has something like OnStar it can do this too. All I see are people making a mountain out of a mole hill. The data on my accelerator pedal is not a threat to my privacy or freedom. The massive number of safety features in this car are a net benefit for my physical safety, though. The number of times I've avoided collisions because the car took action when people I couldn't see were about to hit me is worth every penny. I will never buy another car without the Tesla standard set of features ever again. I used to avoid doing things because of a long drive as I hate the fatigue. Now I don't even blink at the idea of going 300 miles for an event.
spfzero 5y ago
Those data items, speed and control position, don't seem equivalent to the data Google, Amazon and Facebook collect. They do seem like legitimate telemetry on a machine operated by a human though. If my pedal position differs from someone else's, that tells you nothing about me other than that was where the pedal was. Those tell Tesla nothing about my personal habits, my political leanings, who my friends are, what organizations I donate to or participate in, etc.
- sorokod 5y ago
  Could be used to calculate the price of your car insurance. If the data is distinct enough, it could be used to identify the driver (with some degree of probability). It then could be shared with car insureres / law enforcement agencies / private investigators / random concerned citizens.
  - spullara 5y ago
    For sure! https://www.tesla.com/support/insurance https://www.tesla.com/support/insurance
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - atleta 5y ago
    They can't, without your consent. The problem with google & fb is not primarily that they will share their data with 3rd parties (without your consent). It's that they will use it against you. E.g. they'll show the right adverts to nudge your behaviour in directions you may not want but for what they are being paid for. E.g. imagine a political party wanting to efficiently gain new supporters by converting those who are most susceptible. FB and google will have a lot of information about a lot of aspects of your life and they can sell services (not the data!) to interested parties based on that knowledge. Tesla will just know about your driving habits and probably won't be able to sell anything based on that. It's a huge difference. Law enforcement, now that's a different story. You'll probably want to keep the privacy laws of your country strict and not allow peeking into the memory or recording of your car too easily.

mehrdada 5y ago

While Tesla knows more info about how you use or operate the car, the big piece that matters to your privacy is arguable the vehicle location and that is not at all unique to Tesla. Many (most?) vehicles produced in the last decade have a GSM modem that pretty much continuously leaks your data at least to the cellular networks, and likely the vehicle manufacturer/operator. I used to physically remove the modem from my cars were possible.

novok 5y ago
Why did you stop if you 'used' to do it?
- mehrdada 5y ago
  I cannot do it on Teslas. (Or at least the trade off is undesirable)

capableweb 5y ago

I agree with your general comment, but I don't think any of those things can be classified as "personal data". How are you gonna identify a user based on values from those parameters? GDPR, while not perfect, describes "personal data" to be: > The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or one of several special characteristics, which expresses the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, commercial, cultural or social identity of these natural persons. https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/ https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/

Retric 5y ago
Given enough of that data you should be able to trace which roads most users drive on and where they park their car. That seems like personal data to me. Don’t forget they should have a full database of VIN numbers they can already look up a list of owners.
Nextgrid 5y ago
Fingerprinting? There is research around identifying users purely based on their keystroke patterns which are apparently fairly unique. I wouldn't be surprised if driving (and probably a lot of other activities involving physical movements) has the same potential for fingerprinting.
ectopod 5y ago
From the preceding paragraph: > Personal data are any information which are related to an identified or identifiable natural person. Tesla already knows who you are so any data they capture is personal data.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > Tesla already knows who you are so any data they capture is personal data. That's not how that works. Just because IP is personal data doesn't mean that the event "user clicked on this button" is personal data...

nightski 5y ago

I've definitely been hesitant to buy a Tesla for exactly this reason. It's not clear if you can turn it off or avoid it by not using FSD either. It's a shame, would love to own one some day. But I'm guessing the option of buying a car that doesn't have this is slowly dying unfortunately. Consumers never win with this sort of stuff. The really ironic thing is that it is tied in with a more environmentally friendly car. Want to avoid being spied on? Then you need to use dirty fossil fuels.

voakbasda 5y ago
I will continue to repair my ‘70s and ‘80s era vehicles, because newer models that incorporate electronics are all total garbage. Reason: embedded engineer for 30 years who has worked on automotive software.
- slt2021 5y ago
  old vehicles are very inefficient in terms of safety, fuel consumption, and exhaust gases, for this reason alone one should prefer electric or modern era ICE
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    And those extra costs are worth paying to avoid businesses that abuse their customers by making parts and service inaccessible or unaffordable, tracking their customer, and otherwise making cars more expensive and less enjoyable to own and use. And all carmakers are abusive these days, because the market has selected for that new status quo.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Fuel consumption and carbon emissions - that very much depends. Small cars of 30-40 year ago are often very good, even better than today's models in some cases. https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/04/toyota-corolla-gas-mileage/ https://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/11/04/toyota-corolla-gas-mile... Reasons for this are probably creeping sizes and weights and larger engines, larger tires and softer rides.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

Is it not a necessary condition to collect that data in order to build and refine eventual FSD? I'm not making a blanket statement about bulk data collection but in Tesla's case, that data will eventually trickle back to the consumer in the form of car upgrades.

vanilla_nut 5y ago

I feel like there's only a very small intersection between the Facebook-avoiding, home assistant-eschewing crowd and the Tesla driving crowd. Anecdotal I know, but most people I know who drive Teslas have multiple home assistants, Instagram/Facebook accounts, and little regard for personal privacy. Most people I know in the social media/home assistant avoiding crowd talk about how they wish they could buy a car with 90s tech (but 2021 safety tech) to make it simpler and cheaper to repair, since they don't care about CarPlay or Android Auto or the million "convenience" features that don't work reliably.

maxerickson 5y ago
My 2013 car is not particularly laden with gizmos and has been very easy to repair (no real breakdowns...).
- wrkronmiller 5y ago
  It depends a lot on the car and the engine. If you want a high-performance engine that meets modern emissions requirements, you're probably going to be looking at EFI and turbochargers. Changing the fuel injection maps on a modern car requires something akin to rooting/flashing an Android.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    > If you want a high-performance engine that meets modern emissions requirements, you're probably going to be looking at EFI and turbochargers. Changing the fuel injection maps on a modern car requires something akin to rooting/flashing an Android. It's also federally illegal, I don't know why you've veered this thread into ease of performing illegal modifications.
    - profile53 5y ago
      Incidentally, rooting an android tablet is federally illegal too.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

This reminds me of the medical data issue. We are learning that humanity can learn a lot about how to treat diseases with enough understanding (data). It’s entirely foreseeable that level 5 FSD isn’t possible without data.

nyIXfKmM84f1OPr 5y ago

> It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive around in a vehicle that records everything, stores everything, and gives opaque data access to the parent company. How does this give anyone more data on me than is already out there based on the cellphone in my pocket and the use of my credit/debit cards? Even if Tesla didn't collect it the LTE signal of the car is enough to track me when I leave my phone at home. And if you don't have Tesla and your car has something like OnStar it can do this too. All I see are people making a mountain out of a mole hill. The data on my accelerator pedal is not a threat to my privacy or freedom. The massive number of safety features in this car are a net benefit for my physical safety, though. The number of times I've avoided collisions because the car took action when people I couldn't see were about to hit me is worth every penny. I will never buy another car without the Tesla standard set of features ever again. I used to avoid doing things because of a long drive as I hate the fatigue. Now I don't even blink at the idea of going 300 miles for an event.

spfzero 5y ago

Those data items, speed and control position, don't seem equivalent to the data Google, Amazon and Facebook collect. They do seem like legitimate telemetry on a machine operated by a human though. If my pedal position differs from someone else's, that tells you nothing about me other than that was where the pedal was. Those tell Tesla nothing about my personal habits, my political leanings, who my friends are, what organizations I donate to or participate in, etc.

sorokod 5y ago
Could be used to calculate the price of your car insurance. If the data is distinct enough, it could be used to identify the driver (with some degree of probability). It then could be shared with car insureres / law enforcement agencies / private investigators / random concerned citizens.
- spullara 5y ago
  For sure! https://www.tesla.com/support/insurance https://www.tesla.com/support/insurance
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- atleta 5y ago
  They can't, without your consent. The problem with google & fb is not primarily that they will share their data with 3rd parties (without your consent). It's that they will use it against you. E.g. they'll show the right adverts to nudge your behaviour in directions you may not want but for what they are being paid for. E.g. imagine a political party wanting to efficiently gain new supporters by converting those who are most susceptible. FB and google will have a lot of information about a lot of aspects of your life and they can sell services (not the data!) to interested parties based on that knowledge. Tesla will just know about your driving habits and probably won't be able to sell anything based on that. It's a huge difference. Law enforcement, now that's a different story. You'll probably want to keep the privacy laws of your country strict and not allow peeking into the memory or recording of your car too easily.