6 ms·

I don't get these realtime collaborative streaming services. Streaming at home via wifi is already crappy, how should this ever work with more distance?

by k__ 5y ago

capableweb 5y ago
Don't use WiFi? Ethernet has way less latency. Combine with everyone being in the same city/region and using fiber network and latency should be really good. Otherwise, find friends that you have visibility with and setup a P2P WiFi via antennas/radios, you'll get insanely good latency.
- k__ 5y ago
  Yeah, I shouldn't use tech that is basically used all over the world for convenient internet connections to access a new tech that is basically built on top of that. Sounds reasonable...
  - capableweb 5y ago
    The suggestion of a P2P mesh is only if you physically could set that up. Otherwise, using Ethernet + Fiber connection should be good enough for most. Only if you really wanna lower the latency should you invest in additional hardware.
    - weepy 5y ago
      You can play with Wifi - it's OK - but you get probably 5-10ms better latency with Wired LAN. Also I think you have a lower tolerance for latency of your own actions vs the latency of another person's.
      - wmwmwm 5y ago
        Wifi might not be too bad, though it can spontaneously degrade badly if you get interference. Not great in the middle of a jam!
  - erinaceousjones 5y ago
    "This won't work with the commodity technology I use" (wireless LAN) "Here's some ways in which it can work using a slightly different but still as widely used commodity technology" (wired LAN) "No, that is unreasonable, wires are unreasonable" Like, it's SUCH a simple solution: use wires. That's how I can stream games from my computer to my parent's house at 1080p60 with only about 30ms latency over domestic broadband connection, for example. Also, sometimes you can get really lucky with wireless on 5ghz - see streaming in VR as a prime example. The developer of Virtual Desktop for the Quest has done some great work getting a really solid low latency VR feel; I've been able to stream games from rent-a-VM ShadowPC servers without feeling the lag. OK, so pro audio is a different beast and is even more sensitive to latency than VR, but here people are having fun with this tech and clearly it's working for them!
    - k__ 5y ago
      How is 30ms remotely a good latency here? I have 14ms between my Quest/PC and it feels sluggish.
      - capableweb 5y ago
        From the website: > We've been able to achieve sub 20ms latency from UK to Denmark - more than 1000km ! That is pretty good latency for what it does, it's not just ICMP packages but sending/receiving audio and then all that comes with it. How are you connecting your Quest and PC? Sounds awful, my latency to friends outside the city has a shorter latency than that and they are more than 10km away from me.
        k__ 5y ago
        That's why I don't believe those numbers. All I've seen in shorter distances was usually worse :(
        capableweb 5y ago
        Maybe because you refuse to use wires and instead use WiFi which can have really bad latency? If you really, really, really want to use WiFi, get a dedicated PCIe/external WiFi optimized for latency and you can get close to Ethernet latency.
  - NikolaNovak 5y ago
    I mean, ethernet/wired IS, also, a convenient standard tech used all over the world. There's any number of convenient tech out there, and not all of it is for every purpose. My Minivan is supremely convenient ubiquitous tech for my kids & family but I wouldn't use it on a racetrack. My WRX is fun for rallies but I wouldn't use it to haul cargo. My phone is a great convenient ubiquitous camera but I wouldn't use it to capture professional wedding events. etc. WiFi is indeed a convenient tech used all around the world... for convenience, not performance. If you're gaming, if you need security, if you need reliable and consistent performance, Ethernet is pretty ubiquitous. I have couple of wires from Bell router to gaming and music computer at home, wifi for other usages. When added to your extremely sarcastic tone to honest attempts to assist... what are you actually trying to achieve/learn here?
    - k__ 5y ago
      The sarcastic tone was because it felt like someone tried to help by saying "just replace your convenient infrastructure with something much less convenient and everything will be okay"
      - NikolaNovak 5y ago
        But that's exactly true. It's a matter of what you are optimizing for - convenience or performance. There's any number of things WiFi isn't the perfect answer for. Ultimately, in today's world, if you want to jam with musicians not in your room, some non zero effort will be required. Presumably you have setup you audio interface, music interface, microphones, software, mixer, midi and asio, etc etc etc... Honestly, for me at least, Ethernet is the least inconvenient or nerdy or annoying aspect of home studio :-)
        k__ 5y ago
        Yes, you're probably right. For me, cables are a huge issue, because my PC is in a room that's not directly connected to my appartement, where my internet connection is located.
      - fragmede 5y ago
- enlyth 5y ago
  This has not been my experience, with a dedicated PCIe wifi card, the difference in latency to when I plug in the ethernet cable is about 1ms, if even that, to the point it's not worth running cables.
  - fragmede 5y ago
    PCIe (vs USB) is but one of many factors. Which frequency is the wifi on? how busy is the spectrum there? What features does the router support (MIMO, Wifi 6, etc)? I'm happy for you that the difference between wifi and wired is 1 ms, but that experience is far from universal. Ping is also a singular piece of detail. Ping between two mediums can change by 1 ms but have a huge effect on throughput and jitter? Which affects streaming over the Internet a great deal despite not being so obviously linked.
  - jagger27 5y ago
    In perfect circumstances, yeah of course WiFi is stable. If you live in a dense urban area with tons of WiFi noise latency tends to jitter quite a bit. This isn't a problem with Ethernet.
erik_p 5y ago
Well you get that there a need for it, and people are trying to find solutions to overcome the issue of latency, that's the whole point, isn't it?

I don't get these realtime collaborative streaming services. Streaming at home via wifi is already crappy, how should this ever work with more distance?

by k__ 5y ago

I don't get these realtime collaborative streaming services. Streaming at home via wifi is already crappy, how should this ever work with more distance?

capableweb 5y ago

Don't use WiFi? Ethernet has way less latency. Combine with everyone being in the same city/region and using fiber network and latency should be really good. Otherwise, find friends that you have visibility with and setup a P2P WiFi via antennas/radios, you'll get insanely good latency.

k__ 5y ago
Yeah, I shouldn't use tech that is basically used all over the world for convenient internet connections to access a new tech that is basically built on top of that. Sounds reasonable...
- capableweb 5y ago
  The suggestion of a P2P mesh is only if you physically could set that up. Otherwise, using Ethernet + Fiber connection should be good enough for most. Only if you really wanna lower the latency should you invest in additional hardware.
  - weepy 5y ago
    You can play with Wifi - it's OK - but you get probably 5-10ms better latency with Wired LAN. Also I think you have a lower tolerance for latency of your own actions vs the latency of another person's.
    - wmwmwm 5y ago
      Wifi might not be too bad, though it can spontaneously degrade badly if you get interference. Not great in the middle of a jam!
- erinaceousjones 5y ago
  "This won't work with the commodity technology I use" (wireless LAN) "Here's some ways in which it can work using a slightly different but still as widely used commodity technology" (wired LAN) "No, that is unreasonable, wires are unreasonable" Like, it's SUCH a simple solution: use wires. That's how I can stream games from my computer to my parent's house at 1080p60 with only about 30ms latency over domestic broadband connection, for example. Also, sometimes you can get really lucky with wireless on 5ghz - see streaming in VR as a prime example. The developer of Virtual Desktop for the Quest has done some great work getting a really solid low latency VR feel; I've been able to stream games from rent-a-VM ShadowPC servers without feeling the lag. OK, so pro audio is a different beast and is even more sensitive to latency than VR, but here people are having fun with this tech and clearly it's working for them!
  - k__ 5y ago
    How is 30ms remotely a good latency here? I have 14ms between my Quest/PC and it feels sluggish.
    - capableweb 5y ago
      From the website: > We've been able to achieve sub 20ms latency from UK to Denmark - more than 1000km ! That is pretty good latency for what it does, it's not just ICMP packages but sending/receiving audio and then all that comes with it. How are you connecting your Quest and PC? Sounds awful, my latency to friends outside the city has a shorter latency than that and they are more than 10km away from me.
      - k__ 5y ago
        That's why I don't believe those numbers. All I've seen in shorter distances was usually worse :(
        capableweb 5y ago
        Maybe because you refuse to use wires and instead use WiFi which can have really bad latency? If you really, really, really want to use WiFi, get a dedicated PCIe/external WiFi optimized for latency and you can get close to Ethernet latency.
- NikolaNovak 5y ago
  I mean, ethernet/wired IS, also, a convenient standard tech used all over the world. There's any number of convenient tech out there, and not all of it is for every purpose. My Minivan is supremely convenient ubiquitous tech for my kids & family but I wouldn't use it on a racetrack. My WRX is fun for rallies but I wouldn't use it to haul cargo. My phone is a great convenient ubiquitous camera but I wouldn't use it to capture professional wedding events. etc. WiFi is indeed a convenient tech used all around the world... for convenience, not performance. If you're gaming, if you need security, if you need reliable and consistent performance, Ethernet is pretty ubiquitous. I have couple of wires from Bell router to gaming and music computer at home, wifi for other usages. When added to your extremely sarcastic tone to honest attempts to assist... what are you actually trying to achieve/learn here?
  - k__ 5y ago
    The sarcastic tone was because it felt like someone tried to help by saying "just replace your convenient infrastructure with something much less convenient and everything will be okay"
    - NikolaNovak 5y ago
      But that's exactly true. It's a matter of what you are optimizing for - convenience or performance. There's any number of things WiFi isn't the perfect answer for. Ultimately, in today's world, if you want to jam with musicians not in your room, some non zero effort will be required. Presumably you have setup you audio interface, music interface, microphones, software, mixer, midi and asio, etc etc etc... Honestly, for me at least, Ethernet is the least inconvenient or nerdy or annoying aspect of home studio :-)
      - k__ 5y ago
        Yes, you're probably right. For me, cables are a huge issue, because my PC is in a room that's not directly connected to my appartement, where my internet connection is located.
    - fragmede 5y ago
enlyth 5y ago
This has not been my experience, with a dedicated PCIe wifi card, the difference in latency to when I plug in the ethernet cable is about 1ms, if even that, to the point it's not worth running cables.
- fragmede 5y ago
  PCIe (vs USB) is but one of many factors. Which frequency is the wifi on? how busy is the spectrum there? What features does the router support (MIMO, Wifi 6, etc)? I'm happy for you that the difference between wifi and wired is 1 ms, but that experience is far from universal. Ping is also a singular piece of detail. Ping between two mediums can change by 1 ms but have a huge effect on throughput and jitter? Which affects streaming over the Internet a great deal despite not being so obviously linked.
- jagger27 5y ago
  In perfect circumstances, yeah of course WiFi is stable. If you live in a dense urban area with tons of WiFi noise latency tends to jitter quite a bit. This isn't a problem with Ethernet.

erik_p 5y ago

Well you get that there a need for it, and people are trying to find solutions to overcome the issue of latency, that's the whole point, isn't it?