5 ms·

We know for a fact Tesla is doing something nefarious, i.e. the self driving scam. But I suppose Tesla isn't hiding anything nefarious. Most of their malfeasan

We know for a fact Tesla is doing something nefarious, i.e. the self driving scam. But I suppose Tesla isn't hiding anything nefarious. Most of their malfeasance is plain to see.

tenuousemphasis 5y ago
As someone who actually purchased FSD and has yet to receive it, it's not a scam. It's just a really hard problem that I think Tesla will solve before anyone else.
- lazide 5y ago
  If someone promises you’ll have it any day now, so you pay them a lot of money, but they delay it years and years - and you note it’s a really hard problem - at what point is it fraud? Most legal precedent I’ve seen says a lot less time than they’ve already delayed it, frankly.
  - ximeng 5y ago
    There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing the state and rate of progress of self-driving. It's clear it's got a long way to go but is improving quickly. Everyone knows that Elon Musk's twitter is not a reliable indicator of feature release dates.
    - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
      >It's clear it's got a long way to go but is improving quickly. First part yes, second part no. It has been in development since at least 2015 and still drives straight into walls. Meanwhile Waymo and Cruze are putting down tens of thousands of miles between interventions.
      - ximeng 5y ago
        You can see the same route being driven better as new betas come out. There's just not the same openness from Waymo and Cruze as Tesla which has vehicles out there in varied conditions able to be recorded by members of the public.
  - ajross 5y ago
    > at what point is it fraud? It's fraud when someone is harmed. People like you who didn't buy the product and don't want it don't have standing here. People like me, who did, do. And almost without exception, we're all lined up to get the beta release. Offer me a $10k refund today in exchange for never getting access to FSD releases, and I'd turn it down. "People willfully paying for something I don't like" isn't fraud. Find a FSD owner willing to sue for a refund.
    - karpierz 5y ago
      Why would getting a refund preclude you from buying self driving if/when it's released? I think that "pay now, maybe get it later" or "don't pay now, can't buy it later" is a false dilemma.
      - ajross 5y ago
        > Why would getting a refund preclude you from buying self driving if/when it's released? It wouldn't. It would be an existence proof that this isn't fraud: I want the product, they offer it as a pre-purchase with disclaimers, I bought it, ergo I wasn't harmed. Getting a refund now for a product a fully intend to purchase again in the future is called a "loan". Again, fraud is a crime. It requires damages. I have to have been harmed.
        throwawayay02 5y ago
        What if it can be proven they were never serious in their claims about the feasability of self-driving. What if it was all a scam to milk investment money, and yours as well. Would it be fraud then? Point being you were given a disclaimer that was accepted in good faith about receiving a product/service in a reasonable time frame. If that time frame turned out to be 100 years, I'd say you were damaged.
        ajross 5y ago
        > What if it can be proven they were never serious in their claims about the feasability of self-driving. What if it was all a scam to milk investment money, and yours as well. Would it be fraud then? Yes, it would. Because then I would want a refund. But that would be asserting facts not in evidence, and I refer to my point upthread about arguing from a conspiracy as a prior.
- adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
  Tesla is miles behind everyone else. It is hard, yes, but it is even harder if you try to do it with hardware that is not up to the task.

We know for a fact Tesla is doing something nefarious, i.e. the self driving scam. But I suppose Tesla isn't hiding anything nefarious. Most of their malfeasance is plain to see.

tenuousemphasis 5y ago

As someone who actually purchased FSD and has yet to receive it, it's not a scam. It's just a really hard problem that I think Tesla will solve before anyone else.

lazide 5y ago
If someone promises you’ll have it any day now, so you pay them a lot of money, but they delay it years and years - and you note it’s a really hard problem - at what point is it fraud? Most legal precedent I’ve seen says a lot less time than they’ve already delayed it, frankly.
- ximeng 5y ago
  There are plenty of videos on Youtube showing the state and rate of progress of self-driving. It's clear it's got a long way to go but is improving quickly. Everyone knows that Elon Musk's twitter is not a reliable indicator of feature release dates.
  - adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
    >It's clear it's got a long way to go but is improving quickly. First part yes, second part no. It has been in development since at least 2015 and still drives straight into walls. Meanwhile Waymo and Cruze are putting down tens of thousands of miles between interventions.
    - ximeng 5y ago
      You can see the same route being driven better as new betas come out. There's just not the same openness from Waymo and Cruze as Tesla which has vehicles out there in varied conditions able to be recorded by members of the public.
- ajross 5y ago
  > at what point is it fraud? It's fraud when someone is harmed. People like you who didn't buy the product and don't want it don't have standing here. People like me, who did, do. And almost without exception, we're all lined up to get the beta release. Offer me a $10k refund today in exchange for never getting access to FSD releases, and I'd turn it down. "People willfully paying for something I don't like" isn't fraud. Find a FSD owner willing to sue for a refund.
  - karpierz 5y ago
    Why would getting a refund preclude you from buying self driving if/when it's released? I think that "pay now, maybe get it later" or "don't pay now, can't buy it later" is a false dilemma.
    - ajross 5y ago
      > Why would getting a refund preclude you from buying self driving if/when it's released? It wouldn't. It would be an existence proof that this isn't fraud: I want the product, they offer it as a pre-purchase with disclaimers, I bought it, ergo I wasn't harmed. Getting a refund now for a product a fully intend to purchase again in the future is called a "loan". Again, fraud is a crime. It requires damages. I have to have been harmed.
      - throwawayay02 5y ago
        What if it can be proven they were never serious in their claims about the feasability of self-driving. What if it was all a scam to milk investment money, and yours as well. Would it be fraud then? Point being you were given a disclaimer that was accepted in good faith about receiving a product/service in a reasonable time frame. If that time frame turned out to be 100 years, I'd say you were damaged.
        ajross 5y ago
        > What if it can be proven they were never serious in their claims about the feasability of self-driving. What if it was all a scam to milk investment money, and yours as well. Would it be fraud then? Yes, it would. Because then I would want a refund. But that would be asserting facts not in evidence, and I refer to my point upthread about arguing from a conspiracy as a prior.
adfrhgeaq5hy 5y ago
Tesla is miles behind everyone else. It is hard, yes, but it is even harder if you try to do it with hardware that is not up to the task.