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Given all the concerns that FB is a threat to democracy, it’s fascinating to look back at 2008’s glowing praise for Barack Obama’s use of social media to prope

by jpster 5y ago

Given all the concerns that FB is a threat to democracy, it’s fascinating to look back at 2008’s glowing praise for Barack Obama’s use of social media to propel him to the presidency [1]. And without Twitter there would be no Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. Whose ascension is a huge win for American democracy. It is so easy to paint social media as the bad guy, when meanwhile it has been responsible for some of the most transformative global popular movements in recent times. E.g. Arab Spring I feel we don’t talk enough about the rotten underlying dynamics that make the US society so vulnerable to Russian interference, demagogues, and conspiracy theories. Social media is weaponizing these awful dynamics, but it’s feeling like so much “blame the messenger”. FB has literally been asking to be regulated for years now. (And yes, cynically, it’s also smart to get the government to help you dig your moat.) But I’d be surprised if new sm rules alone are the answer to the societal rot and division, precarity and poor education that defines so much of American culture. _ 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/business/media/10carr.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/business/media/10carr.htm...

pjc50 5y ago
> transformative global popular movements in recent times. E.g. Arab Spring This illustrates the benefits and the hazards nicely; open comms can give you a revolution, but it's not sufficient to produce a functioning democracy. Egypt in particular speedran the transition back to totalitarianism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt > ollowing the 2011 Egyptian Revolution, it first had great success. It launched a civic political party—the Freedom and Justice Party—to contest elections, which it described as having "the same mission and goals, but different roles" than the Brotherhood,[8] and agreeing to honor all Egypt's international agreements.[9] The party won almost half the seats in the 2011–12 parliamentary elections, and its candidate, Mohamed Morsi, won the June 2012 presidential election.[10] However President Mohammad Morsi was overthrown after mass protests within a year[11] and a crackdown ensued that some have called more damaging to the movement than any "in eight decades".[12] Hundreds of members were killed, and hundreds—including Morsi and most of the Brotherhood's leadership—were imprisoned. Among the general Egyptian population, a "huge hostility" was felt towards the MB.[13] In September 2013, an Egyptian court banned the Brotherhood and its associations,[14] and ordered that its assets be seized;[15] and in December the military-backed interim government declared the movement a terrorist group following the bombing of security directorate building in Mansoura The people got democracy back briefly, and the first party they elected was an even more repressive Islamist government that had to be overthrown again.
freeflight 5y ago
> some of the most transformative global popular movements in recent times. E.g. Arab Spring In what exactly was the Arab Spring successful? As a show-case for how far-reaching, and heavily, American social media can influence even rather foreign cultures? [0] [1] Most of the places impacted by this "spring", are nowadays worse off than they were 10 years ago. [0] http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope... [1] https://www.france24.com/en/20110203-syria-democracy-protests-facebook-twitter-friday-prayers-egypt https://www.france24.com/en/20110203-syria-democracy-protest...
- _fat_santa 5y ago
  Can you really blame FB for it thought? Looking back, Arab spring would have happened with or without FB. If FB never got off the ground we could be talking about how MySpace or Twitter influenced the Arab spring.
- jpster 5y ago
  First of all, “transformative” is the word I used, intentionally. I don’t know if it’s typical or advisable to try to judge the “success” of a revolution 10 years out. That the revolutions have been met by counter-revolutions doesn’t negate the fact that they changed the trajectory of the countries concerned. And inspired movements and strategies elsewhere, too. > Most of the places impacted by this “spring” […] I wonder if you appreciate just how long that list might be. For instance, I believe Arab Spring strongly influenced Occupy Wall Street. Which kicked off the American discourse about wealth and income inequality and added the “99%” and “1%” to the lexicon. Which had a host of follow-on results (rise of Bernie Sanders…contrast with moderate Dems like Hillary…Dems not seen as doing enough to help inequality…losing to Trump)
- cyber_kinetist 5y ago
  Even worse, the Arab Spring protests were not a phenomenon that was spontaneously organized, but was the result of careful planning by American government-financed organizations. Here's an NY Times article about this at that time: https://archive.md/LzQjB https://archive.md/LzQjB
Consultant32452 5y ago
I feel like you're making an assumption that Twitter/FB users are representative of the broader population. The Arab Spring was a CIA op. It wasn't a natural result of wide spread social media use. The CIA may be using social media now, but they've been causing social unrest across the globe since their inception.
- fishtacos 5y ago
  The Arab Spring was not "a CIA op". The CIA certainly aligned with various forces/groups/nations to maximize the benefits to the US after the Arab Spring protests and its consequences, but strongmen like Ben Ali/Mubarak/Assad were useful (read: preferred) to the US and Israel in maintaining relative stability and hegemony. Social media adoption was a dominant catalyst in these very controlled environments. Lest we lose track of context, the actual spark of the movement was the self immolation of a poor street vendor who set himself aflame in protest of the corrupt local authorities.
  - Consultant32452 5y ago
    Key leaders in the Arab Spring uprisings were trained and funded by the US. http://www.voxnews.com/index.php/big-lie/item/88-arab-spring-was-psyop http://www.voxnews.com/index.php/big-lie/item/88-arab-spring...
    - fishtacos 5y ago
      As I wrote, the CIA has its fingers in a lot of pots, but the Arab Spring was not their making. They were caught unprepared.[0] [0]https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13169/arabstudquar.35.3.0255#metadata_info_tab_contents https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13169/arabstudquar.35.3.0255...
      - Consultant32452 5y ago
        Except the training started literally years before the uprisings. From the article I already posted: >Some Egyptian youth leaders attended a 2008 technology meeting in New York, where they were taught to use social networking and mobile technologies to promote democracy. Among those sponsoring the meeting were Facebook, Google, MTV, Columbia Law School and the State Department. “We learned how to organize and build coalitions,” said Bashem Fathy, a founder of the youth movement that ultimately drove the Egyptian uprisings. Mr. Fathy, who attended training with Freedom House, said, “This certainly helped during the revolution.” The Arab Spring started in the 2010s. The IC may or may not have been caught off guard by the specific timing of events but that's a non-sequitor.
nojito 5y ago
>And without Twitter there would be no Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. Whose ascension is a huge win for American democracy. Every generation has their own version of AOC who makes noise for a few years than falls back into obscurity. This concept doesn't really have anything to do with social media.
- jpster 5y ago
  I’m not aware of any historic parallels to an ultra progressive (for America, anyway) young bartender who tweeted and Insta’d her way into Congress and whose national profile is far past what one would expect given her tenure.
  - 0xy 5y ago
    Would you rather tweets or action? Because she has only provided one of those things. The party thinks she's a joke, and allows her the associated amount of influence in policy direction (zero). Nancy Pelosi is a 700lbs counterweight to AOC, ensuring she's irrelevant.
    - onionisafruit 5y ago
      What action do you want from a freshman congresswoman aside from showing up, voting and performing her assigned committee duties? Tweeting is a form of action that potentially increases her influence in congress. I don’t follow her, so I don’t know if she is doing that effectively, but she is probably the only freshman congressman from outside my state who I can name.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
malshe 5y ago
I bought into the hype and used to think about social media the same way as you. Then I came across a comment on HN mentioning Geek Heresy (https://geekheresy.org https://geekheresy.org) and got that book from our public library. It has strong arguments against everything you have written above.
wreath 5y ago
> It is so easy to paint social media as the bad guy, when meanwhile it has been responsible for some of the most transformative global popular movements in recent times. E.g. Arab Spring No. Oppression, absence of freedom of speech and basic human rights, and the people who decided to not put up with this crap anymore is what was responsible for the Arab Spring. Saying social media was responsible for that is like saying the football is what helped the team to win the superbowl and not the team effort (ok ok, it may have been the case in 2015 ha!)
- jpster 5y ago
  True. Poor choice of word on my part. Social media helped.

by jpster 5y ago

pjc50 5y ago

> transformative global popular movements in recent times. E.g. Arab Spring This illustrates the benefits and the hazards nicely; open comms can give you a revolution, but it's not sufficient to produce a functioning democracy. Egypt in particular speedran the transition back to totalitarianism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Egypt > ollowing the 2011 Egyptian Revolution, it first had great success. It launched a civic political party—the Freedom and Justice Party—to contest elections, which it described as having "the same mission and goals, but different roles" than the Brotherhood,[8] and agreeing to honor all Egypt's international agreements.[9] The party won almost half the seats in the 2011–12 parliamentary elections, and its candidate, Mohamed Morsi, won the June 2012 presidential election.[10] However President Mohammad Morsi was overthrown after mass protests within a year[11] and a crackdown ensued that some have called more damaging to the movement than any "in eight decades".[12] Hundreds of members were killed, and hundreds—including Morsi and most of the Brotherhood's leadership—were imprisoned. Among the general Egyptian population, a "huge hostility" was felt towards the MB.[13] In September 2013, an Egyptian court banned the Brotherhood and its associations,[14] and ordered that its assets be seized;[15] and in December the military-backed interim government declared the movement a terrorist group following the bombing of security directorate building in Mansoura The people got democracy back briefly, and the first party they elected was an even more repressive Islamist government that had to be overthrown again.

freeflight 5y ago

> some of the most transformative global popular movements in recent times. E.g. Arab Spring In what exactly was the Arab Spring successful? As a show-case for how far-reaching, and heavily, American social media can influence even rather foreign cultures? [0] [1] Most of the places impacted by this "spring", are nowadays worse off than they were 10 years ago. [0] http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope... [1] https://www.france24.com/en/20110203-syria-democracy-protests-facebook-twitter-friday-prayers-egypt https://www.france24.com/en/20110203-syria-democracy-protest...

_fat_santa 5y ago
Can you really blame FB for it thought? Looking back, Arab spring would have happened with or without FB. If FB never got off the ground we could be talking about how MySpace or Twitter influenced the Arab spring.
jpster 5y ago
First of all, “transformative” is the word I used, intentionally. I don’t know if it’s typical or advisable to try to judge the “success” of a revolution 10 years out. That the revolutions have been met by counter-revolutions doesn’t negate the fact that they changed the trajectory of the countries concerned. And inspired movements and strategies elsewhere, too. > Most of the places impacted by this “spring” […] I wonder if you appreciate just how long that list might be. For instance, I believe Arab Spring strongly influenced Occupy Wall Street. Which kicked off the American discourse about wealth and income inequality and added the “99%” and “1%” to the lexicon. Which had a host of follow-on results (rise of Bernie Sanders…contrast with moderate Dems like Hillary…Dems not seen as doing enough to help inequality…losing to Trump)
cyber_kinetist 5y ago
Even worse, the Arab Spring protests were not a phenomenon that was spontaneously organized, but was the result of careful planning by American government-financed organizations. Here's an NY Times article about this at that time: https://archive.md/LzQjB https://archive.md/LzQjB

Consultant32452 5y ago

I feel like you're making an assumption that Twitter/FB users are representative of the broader population. The Arab Spring was a CIA op. It wasn't a natural result of wide spread social media use. The CIA may be using social media now, but they've been causing social unrest across the globe since their inception.

fishtacos 5y ago
The Arab Spring was not "a CIA op". The CIA certainly aligned with various forces/groups/nations to maximize the benefits to the US after the Arab Spring protests and its consequences, but strongmen like Ben Ali/Mubarak/Assad were useful (read: preferred) to the US and Israel in maintaining relative stability and hegemony. Social media adoption was a dominant catalyst in these very controlled environments. Lest we lose track of context, the actual spark of the movement was the self immolation of a poor street vendor who set himself aflame in protest of the corrupt local authorities.
- Consultant32452 5y ago
  Key leaders in the Arab Spring uprisings were trained and funded by the US. http://www.voxnews.com/index.php/big-lie/item/88-arab-spring-was-psyop http://www.voxnews.com/index.php/big-lie/item/88-arab-spring...
  - fishtacos 5y ago
    As I wrote, the CIA has its fingers in a lot of pots, but the Arab Spring was not their making. They were caught unprepared.[0] [0]https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13169/arabstudquar.35.3.0255#metadata_info_tab_contents https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13169/arabstudquar.35.3.0255...
    - Consultant32452 5y ago
      Except the training started literally years before the uprisings. From the article I already posted: >Some Egyptian youth leaders attended a 2008 technology meeting in New York, where they were taught to use social networking and mobile technologies to promote democracy. Among those sponsoring the meeting were Facebook, Google, MTV, Columbia Law School and the State Department. “We learned how to organize and build coalitions,” said Bashem Fathy, a founder of the youth movement that ultimately drove the Egyptian uprisings. Mr. Fathy, who attended training with Freedom House, said, “This certainly helped during the revolution.” The Arab Spring started in the 2010s. The IC may or may not have been caught off guard by the specific timing of events but that's a non-sequitor.

nojito 5y ago

>And without Twitter there would be no Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. Whose ascension is a huge win for American democracy. Every generation has their own version of AOC who makes noise for a few years than falls back into obscurity. This concept doesn't really have anything to do with social media.

jpster 5y ago
I’m not aware of any historic parallels to an ultra progressive (for America, anyway) young bartender who tweeted and Insta’d her way into Congress and whose national profile is far past what one would expect given her tenure.
- 0xy 5y ago
  Would you rather tweets or action? Because she has only provided one of those things. The party thinks she's a joke, and allows her the associated amount of influence in policy direction (zero). Nancy Pelosi is a 700lbs counterweight to AOC, ensuring she's irrelevant.
  - onionisafruit 5y ago
    What action do you want from a freshman congresswoman aside from showing up, voting and performing her assigned committee duties? Tweeting is a form of action that potentially increases her influence in congress. I don’t follow her, so I don’t know if she is doing that effectively, but she is probably the only freshman congressman from outside my state who I can name.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

malshe 5y ago

I bought into the hype and used to think about social media the same way as you. Then I came across a comment on HN mentioning Geek Heresy (https://geekheresy.org https://geekheresy.org) and got that book from our public library. It has strong arguments against everything you have written above.

wreath 5y ago

> It is so easy to paint social media as the bad guy, when meanwhile it has been responsible for some of the most transformative global popular movements in recent times. E.g. Arab Spring No. Oppression, absence of freedom of speech and basic human rights, and the people who decided to not put up with this crap anymore is what was responsible for the Arab Spring. Saying social media was responsible for that is like saying the football is what helped the team to win the superbowl and not the team effort (ok ok, it may have been the case in 2015 ha!)

jpster 5y ago
True. Poor choice of word on my part. Social media helped.