7 ms·

That's not how economics of scale work. This is zero sum thinking. Google buying green electricity makes green electricity cheaper, not more expensive. More pr

That's not how economics of scale work. This is zero sum thinking. Google buying green electricity makes green electricity cheaper, not more expensive. More producers are incentivized to produce green electricity as Google's demand increases continuously. Other companies like Microsoft and Facebook go green as well, and the economies of scale kick in. Prices start collapsing. This is actually happening right now. If I go solar today with my home, it is not a negative action that displaces someone else. It actually expands the solar industry and enables cheaper solar in the future. Without early customers, green energy would never have taken off.

fulafel 5y ago
The fact that there is a learning effect doesn't mean it's good to consume more electricity. If you want to argue positive sum, you would need to show a the consumed green electricity displaces more than the equivalent amount of fossil electricity plus co2 fp of measures used to handle variability of renewables vs nearly flat demand from data centers. Which seems hard.
- random314 5y ago
  I mean we might as well shut down electricity to all of our homes if we want to make this argument. And we could argue with each other over snail mail. But I suspect that will actually be worse from CO2 emissions perspective.
  - fulafel 5y ago
    That's strawman, some electricity use is needed because we depend on it for survival and the rest is various levels of nice to have. But its use has environmental costs and we are in big trouble with climate change. As long as there is fossil made electricity flowing in the grid, marginal changes in demand can be viewed as contributing to its production, because electricity is fungible (modulo transmission considerations).
    - random314 5y ago
      That's a fat big POV that very few will take seriously. Being carbon neutral absolutely incentivizes green energy. Making up a wall of insurmountable demands that very few people in this world, except hunter gatherers, can possibly meet does not help but hurts efforts towards CO2 reduction. Carbon neutrality works by subsidizing the costs of reducing carbon emissions at source. Trying to shit on that makes you regressive, not progressive.
      - fulafel 5y ago
        Let's not get too emotional about things and keep to the HN guidelines. I do understand and somewhat agree with the "perfect is the enemy of good" thinking, but it's still good to be aware and keep outselves honest about the difference between them. The marginal CO2 perspective is in fact an establilished thing in the industry, see eg [1] [2]. Regarding "insurmountable demands", not sure what you're referring to here, the discussion was about whether there are significant indirect co2 & environmental costs to "carbon neutral" electricity as defined by Google, which I argued there are. [1] https://www.nwcouncil.org/energy/marginal-carbon-dioxide-production-rates-of-the-nw-power-systemdraft-for-comment https://www.nwcouncil.org/energy/marginal-carbon-dioxide-pro... [2] https://www.tmrow.com/blog/marginal-carbon-intensity-of-electricity-with-machine-learning/ https://www.tmrow.com/blog/marginal-carbon-intensity-of-elec...
throwawaylinux 5y ago
> Google buying green electricity makes green electricity cheaper, not more expensive. The marginal cost of puchasing more energy might go down (or it might go up if you are pushing up the demand). But not the total expenditure on energy. > Prices start collapsing. This is actually happening right now. Thermal coal prices are at all time record highs right now. It's 4x the price it was a few years ago when we were all hearing about how solar has become cheaper than coal. It's not that solar generation suddenly became far more expensive for some supernatural reason. It's that demand for electricity outweighs the installed capacity of renewables.
- random314 5y ago
  How is the price of thermal coal spiking and solar prices collapsing not a good thing?! Are you sure that if the situation were inverted you wouldn't still be complaining? Damned if you, damned if you don't.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Coal prices are high because there is a lot of electricity demand not being met by existing renewables. Because everybody bought the green electricity. Which is not only making the green electricity more expensive, it's causing more coal to be burnt to keep up.
    - random314 5y ago
      Like I said before, that's not how economies of scale work in the long run. Following your recommendations will reduce green energy prices in the short run and promote CO2 emissions in the long run. The negative externalities of CO2 are long term and not short term. So your complaints are counter productive.

fulafel 5y ago

The fact that there is a learning effect doesn't mean it's good to consume more electricity. If you want to argue positive sum, you would need to show a the consumed green electricity displaces more than the equivalent amount of fossil electricity plus co2 fp of measures used to handle variability of renewables vs nearly flat demand from data centers. Which seems hard.

random314 5y ago
I mean we might as well shut down electricity to all of our homes if we want to make this argument. And we could argue with each other over snail mail. But I suspect that will actually be worse from CO2 emissions perspective.
- fulafel 5y ago
  That's strawman, some electricity use is needed because we depend on it for survival and the rest is various levels of nice to have. But its use has environmental costs and we are in big trouble with climate change. As long as there is fossil made electricity flowing in the grid, marginal changes in demand can be viewed as contributing to its production, because electricity is fungible (modulo transmission considerations).
  - random314 5y ago
    That's a fat big POV that very few will take seriously. Being carbon neutral absolutely incentivizes green energy. Making up a wall of insurmountable demands that very few people in this world, except hunter gatherers, can possibly meet does not help but hurts efforts towards CO2 reduction. Carbon neutrality works by subsidizing the costs of reducing carbon emissions at source. Trying to shit on that makes you regressive, not progressive.
    - fulafel 5y ago
      Let's not get too emotional about things and keep to the HN guidelines. I do understand and somewhat agree with the "perfect is the enemy of good" thinking, but it's still good to be aware and keep outselves honest about the difference between them. The marginal CO2 perspective is in fact an establilished thing in the industry, see eg [1] [2]. Regarding "insurmountable demands", not sure what you're referring to here, the discussion was about whether there are significant indirect co2 & environmental costs to "carbon neutral" electricity as defined by Google, which I argued there are. [1] https://www.nwcouncil.org/energy/marginal-carbon-dioxide-production-rates-of-the-nw-power-systemdraft-for-comment https://www.nwcouncil.org/energy/marginal-carbon-dioxide-pro... [2] https://www.tmrow.com/blog/marginal-carbon-intensity-of-electricity-with-machine-learning/ https://www.tmrow.com/blog/marginal-carbon-intensity-of-elec...

throwawaylinux 5y ago

> Google buying green electricity makes green electricity cheaper, not more expensive. The marginal cost of puchasing more energy might go down (or it might go up if you are pushing up the demand). But not the total expenditure on energy. > Prices start collapsing. This is actually happening right now. Thermal coal prices are at all time record highs right now. It's 4x the price it was a few years ago when we were all hearing about how solar has become cheaper than coal. It's not that solar generation suddenly became far more expensive for some supernatural reason. It's that demand for electricity outweighs the installed capacity of renewables.

random314 5y ago
How is the price of thermal coal spiking and solar prices collapsing not a good thing?! Are you sure that if the situation were inverted you wouldn't still be complaining? Damned if you, damned if you don't.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Coal prices are high because there is a lot of electricity demand not being met by existing renewables. Because everybody bought the green electricity. Which is not only making the green electricity more expensive, it's causing more coal to be burnt to keep up.
  - random314 5y ago
    Like I said before, that's not how economies of scale work in the long run. Following your recommendations will reduce green energy prices in the short run and promote CO2 emissions in the long run. The negative externalities of CO2 are long term and not short term. So your complaints are counter productive.