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I just read some Dutch news sources to get some more context. Some things to know: Tesla hands over all requested data in case of an investigation. But only t

by tdrdt 5y ago

I just read some Dutch news sources to get some more context. Some things to know: Tesla hands over all requested data in case of an investigation. But only the requested data. Because we now know what data is stored more data can and will be requested in the future. The crash was caused by the driver because he thought lane assistance was turned on but only adaptive cruise control was turned on. This caused the vehicle to move to another lane. So the question about this accident is: how obvious is it for the driver what is going on and what assistance to expect.

mft_ 5y ago
> So the question about this accident is: how obvious is it for the driver what is going on and what assistance to expect. - you have to deliberately turn the full assistance on/off - there are audio cues when it turns on, and whilst it’s on, and when it turns off - the visuals on the screen are different when it’s on vs. off - the steering wheel feels very different when it’s on - when it’s on, there are regular cues to generate torque through the wheel to show you’re paying attention - the overall concept is that even when it’s on, you should keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention - though this is obviously subject to human failings TBF, I’ve done something similar once or twice —-only turned on cruise control when I thought I’d turned on full assist—- but if you’ve got your hands on the wheel it’s pretty natural and quick to correct and then realise your mistake.
- arghwhat 5y ago
  So we're down to small UI differences on the dashboard, and having the driver notice the control forces...
  - mft_ 5y ago
    …and multiple audio cues. Not being facetious, but aren’t audio, visual (=the dashboard), and touch (=control forces) the only ways a human is able to interact with a car? They could make the engagement or not of FSD more obvious in the UI, and maybe have spoken alerts? (Although at the moment there are so many audio alerts in a Tesla, I think it’s approaching saturation - the point where if everything is an alarm, then nothing is an alarm…)
    - wil421 5y ago
      The Problem with the model 3 and Y are the lack of a screen in front of the driver. All of the ACC, Lane Assist, and self parking (can’t be engaged from the steering wheel) in my Jeep are displayed right in front of me. I don’t have to look away to see what’s turned on. My wife’s BMW is similar and it also has a HUD that displays everything. The driver never has to turn away from the road to figure out what’s happening. Both cars also have audio cues associated with the various capabilities. It’s one thing I’d wish they changed in the 3/Y.
      - mft_ 5y ago
        From similar discussions, this seems to be binary - compared to a 'normal' dashboard (which while central isn't in the driver's eye-line whilst watching the road, is often dark or lacking in contrast, and can be obscured by the wheel depending on the driver's size and seat settings) people either love or hate the M3/Y's screen location. I get on fine with it (and flicking my eyes there is arguably better than my other cars' 'traditional' dash location) but others don't. Agree that a well-designed HUD might be the best of all worlds; interesting how very few cars implement this, despite it having been technologically straightforward for decades.
        arghwhat 5y ago
        HUDs need special windshields or floating glass to avoid double reflections from the laminated glass.
    - arghwhat 5y ago
      Audio cues in the form of a one-shot bell are completely useless for important information. A driver is naturally in a noisy environment and too busy paying attention to other things - and when they have time to worry about what the sound was, it's gone. The same applies to light UI changes in a display the driver rarely looks at - especially when it isn't even in front of them! That's why you usually use pretty strong color-coded indicators in conventional dashboards to convey mode - hard to miss unlike vague UI differences in an already low-contrast UI, and they can be seen any time unlike an audio cue. Audio cues in such cars usually just mean "recheck the dashboard, a new lamp came on". The only better thing I can think of (outside a continuous warning beep) would be a HUD display like other high-end cars.
- micheljansen 5y ago
  In the 2,5 years I have been driving my model 3 it has happened to me several times that autosteer got disabled (likely due to steering wheel resistance) and I only noticed it after a while. The visual queues are extremely subtle, the auditory queues easily get lost in road noise or music and when you are driving on straight stretches of smooth highway you don’t constantly feel feedback through the steering wheel. Of course the person in the driving seat always remains responsible but it’s not hard to imagine how someone might drift out of their lane like this.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gzer0 5y ago
Why would the request for "any and all data" not yield ALL of the data in the first place? Is it because you must request specific data? Is making a request for all data from the manufacturer not allowed? Am I missing something here?
- tdrdt 5y ago
  I am not sure. Maybe the law states you can only investigate what you need to investigate. Climate control and music volume settings might be irrelevant.
- ifjimelse 5y ago
  If they are making a Subject Access Request under the GDPR (which they should be), then yes, Tesla should be providing: * what personal information the organisation holds about them; * how they are using it; * who they are sharing it with; and * where they got their data from. https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/your-right-to-get-copies-of-your-data/ https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/your-right-to-get-copie...
  - cnorthwood 5y ago
    would driving data/telemetry be categorised as personal data under GDPR? I assume cars could have multiple drivers so unless there's a clear way of deriving the person from the data itself it might be classed as anonymous and therefore not in scope
    - ifjimelse 5y ago
      Yes it likely would be, if it’s timestamped log data. Even if there are multiple drivers, the data recorded still relates “to an identified or identifiable individual”. Simply knowing who was driving the car when, which shouldn’t be difficult if it’s your car, makes the specific individual identifiable. Not having individuals’ names / email addresses etc. in a dataset of multiple people, doesn’t mean that the data is anonymous. See for example https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/location-tracking-cell-phone.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/locat...

by tdrdt 5y ago

mft_ 5y ago

> So the question about this accident is: how obvious is it for the driver what is going on and what assistance to expect. - you have to deliberately turn the full assistance on/off - there are audio cues when it turns on, and whilst it’s on, and when it turns off - the visuals on the screen are different when it’s on vs. off - the steering wheel feels very different when it’s on - when it’s on, there are regular cues to generate torque through the wheel to show you’re paying attention - the overall concept is that even when it’s on, you should keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention - though this is obviously subject to human failings TBF, I’ve done something similar once or twice —-only turned on cruise control when I thought I’d turned on full assist—- but if you’ve got your hands on the wheel it’s pretty natural and quick to correct and then realise your mistake.

arghwhat 5y ago
So we're down to small UI differences on the dashboard, and having the driver notice the control forces...
- mft_ 5y ago
  …and multiple audio cues. Not being facetious, but aren’t audio, visual (=the dashboard), and touch (=control forces) the only ways a human is able to interact with a car? They could make the engagement or not of FSD more obvious in the UI, and maybe have spoken alerts? (Although at the moment there are so many audio alerts in a Tesla, I think it’s approaching saturation - the point where if everything is an alarm, then nothing is an alarm…)
  - wil421 5y ago
    The Problem with the model 3 and Y are the lack of a screen in front of the driver. All of the ACC, Lane Assist, and self parking (can’t be engaged from the steering wheel) in my Jeep are displayed right in front of me. I don’t have to look away to see what’s turned on. My wife’s BMW is similar and it also has a HUD that displays everything. The driver never has to turn away from the road to figure out what’s happening. Both cars also have audio cues associated with the various capabilities. It’s one thing I’d wish they changed in the 3/Y.
    - mft_ 5y ago
      From similar discussions, this seems to be binary - compared to a 'normal' dashboard (which while central isn't in the driver's eye-line whilst watching the road, is often dark or lacking in contrast, and can be obscured by the wheel depending on the driver's size and seat settings) people either love or hate the M3/Y's screen location. I get on fine with it (and flicking my eyes there is arguably better than my other cars' 'traditional' dash location) but others don't. Agree that a well-designed HUD might be the best of all worlds; interesting how very few cars implement this, despite it having been technologically straightforward for decades.
      - arghwhat 5y ago
        HUDs need special windshields or floating glass to avoid double reflections from the laminated glass.
  - arghwhat 5y ago
    Audio cues in the form of a one-shot bell are completely useless for important information. A driver is naturally in a noisy environment and too busy paying attention to other things - and when they have time to worry about what the sound was, it's gone. The same applies to light UI changes in a display the driver rarely looks at - especially when it isn't even in front of them! That's why you usually use pretty strong color-coded indicators in conventional dashboards to convey mode - hard to miss unlike vague UI differences in an already low-contrast UI, and they can be seen any time unlike an audio cue. Audio cues in such cars usually just mean "recheck the dashboard, a new lamp came on". The only better thing I can think of (outside a continuous warning beep) would be a HUD display like other high-end cars.
micheljansen 5y ago
In the 2,5 years I have been driving my model 3 it has happened to me several times that autosteer got disabled (likely due to steering wheel resistance) and I only noticed it after a while. The visual queues are extremely subtle, the auditory queues easily get lost in road noise or music and when you are driving on straight stretches of smooth highway you don’t constantly feel feedback through the steering wheel. Of course the person in the driving seat always remains responsible but it’s not hard to imagine how someone might drift out of their lane like this.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gzer0 5y ago

Why would the request for "any and all data" not yield ALL of the data in the first place? Is it because you must request specific data? Is making a request for all data from the manufacturer not allowed? Am I missing something here?

tdrdt 5y ago
I am not sure. Maybe the law states you can only investigate what you need to investigate. Climate control and music volume settings might be irrelevant.
ifjimelse 5y ago
If they are making a Subject Access Request under the GDPR (which they should be), then yes, Tesla should be providing: * what personal information the organisation holds about them; * how they are using it; * who they are sharing it with; and * where they got their data from. https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/your-right-to-get-copies-of-your-data/ https://ico.org.uk/your-data-matters/your-right-to-get-copie...
- cnorthwood 5y ago
  would driving data/telemetry be categorised as personal data under GDPR? I assume cars could have multiple drivers so unless there's a clear way of deriving the person from the data itself it might be classed as anonymous and therefore not in scope
  - ifjimelse 5y ago
    Yes it likely would be, if it’s timestamped log data. Even if there are multiple drivers, the data recorded still relates “to an identified or identifiable individual”. Simply knowing who was driving the car when, which shouldn’t be difficult if it’s your car, makes the specific individual identifiable. Not having individuals’ names / email addresses etc. in a dataset of multiple people, doesn’t mean that the data is anonymous. See for example https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/location-tracking-cell-phone.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/locat...