8 ms·

Saying, "Don't call this FUD" up top doesn't prevent this from being possibly the most blatent FUD I've seen in a long time. Check if your hardware supports yo

Saying, "Don't call this FUD" up top doesn't prevent this from being possibly the most blatent FUD I've seen in a long time. Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. What a waste of time.

vadfa 5y ago
People are used to Windows where literally all hardware works. So that statement is not that evident.
- bogwog 5y ago
  Linux runs on a Nintendo Wii. Windows does not run a Nintendo Wii. Windows hardware support sucks.
  - vadfa 5y ago
    Why would anybody want to install Windows on a Nintendo Wii?
    - selfhoster11 5y ago
      Why not? A true hacker would consider it.
- mixedCase 5y ago
  >People are used to Windows where literally all hardware works Hahaha fuck no. I spent two weeks trying to get a Lenovo Y50's touchpad to work properly on modern Windows. It's impossible. Official drivers are unmaintained and whatever you get whether generic or frankensteined-in works terrible compared to the out of the box experience on a Linux distro.
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    Just get/buy a PC pre-installed with Windows? Don't most people do this?
    - bkberry352 5y ago
      lol, family member's acer laptop (pre-installed with Windows) had audio driver issues to the point where the audio output jack simply doesn't work. No drivers are available for the machine b/c it's pre-installed, so why would there be issues? The audio out works perfectly under ubuntu
    - nybble41 5y ago
      You could equally well get or buy a PC pre-installed with Linux where someone else made sure everything was well-supported. It's not that Windows has inherently better hardware support due to its architecture—rather, hardware manufacturers put in the effort to ensure that their (new) hardware can be used with the latest few versions of Windows, since they would otherwise lose a large part of their target market. On the other hand, Linux tends to be much better at supporting older hardware that the manufacturers are no longer interested in selling, as well as working across a broader range of hardware platforms ranging from embedded IoT devices to supercomputers.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- throwawayninja 5y ago
  I have anecdata of the opposite: my ThinkPad T590 cannot install windows with the .iso from microsoft, you need hardware drivers for the NVMe SSD off another disk during the install. I think windows and linux are about equal in terms of hardware support, with windows trending more towards good support tomorrow's hardware (it works when the new product launches) and linux needing 1-2 weeks before the new hardware gets a driver update + packages are updated.
  - itvision 5y ago
    > needing 1-2 weeks Sometimes up to several years or never. Are VirtualBox and VMWare host drivers included in the Linux kernel? Granted they are not "drivers" per se but anyways. OK, let's talk about hardware: literally thousands of WiFi adapters continue not to be supported by the Linux kernel some of which were released as early as five years ago. And then, if you have a Windows driver you know it works and it's full featured. The Linux driver may offer very rudiment support just to make something work. So, it's not so simple. Far from it.
- rattlesnakedave 5y ago
  This is correct. The "happy path" for a new linux installation is much worse than for windows. It's gotten much better over the last decade, but it's still much harder. Further, if you really want to drive adoption the linux onboarding process has to be better than the windows onboarding process, which is a massively difficult because the windows process is "purchase a computer, hit the power button, and watch the OS as configured by the manufacturer boot."
- realusername 5y ago
  > People are used to Windows where literally all hardware works. So that statement is not that evident. I wouldn't be so confident, I had my fair share of crappy drivers on windows as well to the point if that the hardware is old, there's a good chance that it will run smoother on Linux.
silisili 5y ago
Exactly. Or, just buy an integrated system from people who support Linux Example - Intel. I've never had a single hardware support problem with a NUC. Intel processor, Intel video, Intel wifi, Intel bluetooth. All supported right in the kernel, out of the box. AMD is getting there, too. I currently run a 4x4 with ryzen and vega, and an Intel ax200. All peachy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- SavantIdiot 5y ago
  Anecdata: I have an intel/dell laptop and bluetooth is a trainwreck on Focal Fossa, let alone display modes and orientation changes. Video playback in FireFox works sometimes, sometimes i need to reboot because it freezes and then won't play again even if I kill the process (I think it is related to going into suspend with a video paused). Yeah, I'm just one person, but damn it is frustrating to do anything else but dev work on linux.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    You're running a two year old kernel on Focal. Try something newer. I have Intel WiFi and Bluetooth and they work perfectly fine on Linux, as does video playback on Firefox.
    - SavantIdiot 5y ago
      Lol. ~30 years of effort and the answer is still: "Download the latest version." Linux is a workhorse, not a Windows replacement for the unwashed masses.
      - heavyset_go 5y ago
        This is like using Windows 7 and complaining when it's Windows 10 that has compatibility with your hardware. LTS releases are explicit that they have limited hardware support, that is if they even attempt to backport new/updated hardware support at all. That's the point of Ubuntu's LTS Hardware Enablement (HWE) program[1], although it isn't perfect and I wouldn't rely on it for hardware support. [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack
ModernMech 5y ago
> Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. Not even then. I have a Ubuntu laptop direct from Dell (who has been selling Ubuntu laptops for 14 years), and every time I go to open it the battery is dead. So it's plugged in constantly. My cats love to sit on the closed lid because of how warm it is. Ostensibly it's asleep, but to the touch I can tell that it's running hot, and that's why it's dead within a few hours of being off the charger, even if it's not "on". I mean, it runs hotter sitting there idle and off than my new Surface does when it's on and compiling my Rust code. That's sad! This is a laptop direct from a hardware manufacturer who supports Linux. This kind of thing was a problem when hibernation first became a thing. Okay, understandable. But 2+ decades later, in 2021, I can't purchase a Ubuntu laptop directly from a manufacturer that has this figured out. That's a problem for Linux. It's one thing to fall short. It's another to fall short for 2 decades.
- munchler 5y ago
  What does Dell say if you report this as a defect in their product?
  - ModernMech 5y ago
    I'm free to return it, but otherwise they will investigate the issue and get back to me. As if.
- Kafkish 5y ago
  I have a Dell Inspiron with AMD A12 processor that I bought with Windows preinstalled in 2019. Never even booted into Windows, just booted right into a USB stick and installed Elementary OS. Putting the system to Sleep was an issue, but now I have Linux Mint Cinnamon installed on it. No more issue with going to Sleep. I can expect to use the laptop until it packs up.
rvz 5y ago
Windows users don't need to check as their hardware is fully supported as soon as they press the ON button on their new PC. On top of that why waste time installing a distro or playing around with display managers, Linux NVIDIA drivers when WSL does it all on Windows? The fact is: WSL saves time and makes installing Linux redundant and actually a waste of time. Oh dear.
- indymike 5y ago
  > The fact is: WSL saves time and makes installing Linux redundant and actually a waste of time. Not sure what point you are making here. Yes, you can virtualize and OS and WSL is a nice way to do it?
  - rvz 5y ago
    > Yes, you can virtualize and OS and WSL is a nice way to do it? Yes. That's the point. Installing Linux using WSL is several clicks away on the Microsoft Store, rather than wasting hours migrating, rebooting, formatting, dual-booting and then installing a Linux distro on the system. WSL saves lots of time and makes installing Linux on another partition or in general a waste of time.
    - indymike 5y ago
      If are building both Windows and Linux software, that might be convenient. But not particularly more convenient than any other virtualization layer, just more limited (can't install other oses) and with a difficult to maintain and secure host OS. WSL seems to not compete with dual boot, it is competing with other virtual machine software now that is just nicely dressed vm.
- Kafkish 5y ago
  > The fact is: WSL saves time and makes installing Linux redundant and actually a waste of time. If I ever need to run an OS that spies on me, I'll use Windows, then WSL to tun Linux. But I don't want that, so I run Linux. It's freedom, which is more important for me.
Spivak 5y ago
But it's not FUD. These are issues that affect end real-life end users and many of them are hardware independent.
bogwog 5y ago
> Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. What a waste of time. Who runs into hardware compatibility issues with Linux? People installing it themselves. Who installs Linux themselves? Tech geeks/enthusiasts. Who should know better than to install an operating system before checking for hardware support? Tech geeks/enthusiasts. That's why I can't take those people seriously. If hardware support was a real problem, Apple would have gone out of business long ago. People like that aren't trying to have an honest discussion, they're just trying to bash something they don't like or understand. There are many issues that need to be overcome in the Linux community before the Linux desktop can go mainstream, but we're not going to find answers to those problems by listening to these people.
- rattlesnakedave 5y ago
  >Who installs Linux themselves? Tech geeks/enthusiasts. Perhaps this wouldn't be the case if we fixed some of the issues in the article :) There are plenty of people "on the fence" but problems mentioned in the article (among others) keep them away.
  - bogwog 5y ago
    What type of person knows how to install an operating system that isn't a tech geek/enthusiast? Not even Linux, who can install Windows or MacOS on an empty hard drive, but doesn't consider themselves to be a "computer person"? If the Linux desktop can't take off until my grandma is able to install it herself, then well, yeah it's truly fucked.
- rvz 5y ago
  Exactly this. These are the exact reasons why users having to 'install Linux distros' these days will always be limited to tech geeks and enthusiasts and not widely adopted as a mainstream desktop. It also explains why Windows 11 (with WSL) is probably the best Linux distro for the desktop as it is already been 'painfully' admitted. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28960864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28960864
SassyThrowaway 5y ago
> Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. What a waste of time. Say, I am buying Thinkpad T480s and Thinkpad X1 (2018). What would you suggest that I check?
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  In this scenario, the fact that Lenovo will sell you a Thinkpad X1 with Linux pre-installed shows there is a solution (how easy it is to get to that solution on your own without just buying one pre-configured from them may be an exercise for the reader). https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/x1-carbon-gen9/20xwcto1wwus3 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/x...
rattlesnakedave 5y ago
The common path for someone using Linux for home computing is transitioning from windows on hardware they already own.
selfhoster11 5y ago
Why shouldn't it be expected to work with what I already own?
Kafkish 5y ago
The thing is, Linux distros make it super easy to check if your HW will work. Just download the distro you want, transfer to a USB stick. Reboot your PC with it and check any connected HW. If it works with the live system, it will work when installed on the PC.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  What happens when you want to upgrade to a new PC? Do you take the live USB stick to the computer store and try to boot it?
pizza234 5y ago
This is, unfortunately, not necessarily true (of course, the strategy makes sense). I "voted with my money", and the result is that my laptop, which is supposed to be the poster child of Linux compatibility, has at least one serious hardware compatibility problem out of the box, along with at least another minor one.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> Guess what? Then it all works great. You know, except for literally all the non-hardware related problems in that list.
itvision 5y ago
> Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. What a waste of time. Ever opened bugzilla.kernel.org? Ever seen the number of regressions? In the past seven days alone: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/buglist.cgi?chfield=%5BBug%20creation%5D&chfieldfrom=7d&list_id=1099399 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/buglist.cgi?chfield=%5BBug%20cre... Count the number of "stopped working" - at least a dozen and these are only from the people who have bothered to find the kernel bugzilla and file bug reports which is not an easy feat. There's no such thing as "checking if your hardware is properly supported under Linux". Everything may stop working at any time.
phendrenad2 5y ago
"Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it" Have you ever tried this? It's shockingly difficult. Even if someone says "yes this device works under Linux 100%" half the time you'll see ANOTHER post telling you it's garbage on Linux.
itvision 5y ago
> Saying, "Don't call this FUD" up top doesn't prevent this from being possibly the most blatent FUD I've seen in a long time. Anything more concrete, please? The entire 12 thousand words piece cannot be wrong considering it's shared so much and contains over three thousand comments most of which share the spirit of the article.

vadfa 5y ago

People are used to Windows where literally all hardware works. So that statement is not that evident.

bogwog 5y ago
Linux runs on a Nintendo Wii. Windows does not run a Nintendo Wii. Windows hardware support sucks.
- vadfa 5y ago
  Why would anybody want to install Windows on a Nintendo Wii?
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    Why not? A true hacker would consider it.
mixedCase 5y ago
>People are used to Windows where literally all hardware works Hahaha fuck no. I spent two weeks trying to get a Lenovo Y50's touchpad to work properly on modern Windows. It's impossible. Official drivers are unmaintained and whatever you get whether generic or frankensteined-in works terrible compared to the out of the box experience on a Linux distro.
- colesantiago 5y ago
  Just get/buy a PC pre-installed with Windows? Don't most people do this?
  - bkberry352 5y ago
    lol, family member's acer laptop (pre-installed with Windows) had audio driver issues to the point where the audio output jack simply doesn't work. No drivers are available for the machine b/c it's pre-installed, so why would there be issues? The audio out works perfectly under ubuntu
  - nybble41 5y ago
    You could equally well get or buy a PC pre-installed with Linux where someone else made sure everything was well-supported. It's not that Windows has inherently better hardware support due to its architecture—rather, hardware manufacturers put in the effort to ensure that their (new) hardware can be used with the latest few versions of Windows, since they would otherwise lose a large part of their target market. On the other hand, Linux tends to be much better at supporting older hardware that the manufacturers are no longer interested in selling, as well as working across a broader range of hardware platforms ranging from embedded IoT devices to supercomputers.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
throwawayninja 5y ago
I have anecdata of the opposite: my ThinkPad T590 cannot install windows with the .iso from microsoft, you need hardware drivers for the NVMe SSD off another disk during the install. I think windows and linux are about equal in terms of hardware support, with windows trending more towards good support tomorrow's hardware (it works when the new product launches) and linux needing 1-2 weeks before the new hardware gets a driver update + packages are updated.
- itvision 5y ago
  > needing 1-2 weeks Sometimes up to several years or never. Are VirtualBox and VMWare host drivers included in the Linux kernel? Granted they are not "drivers" per se but anyways. OK, let's talk about hardware: literally thousands of WiFi adapters continue not to be supported by the Linux kernel some of which were released as early as five years ago. And then, if you have a Windows driver you know it works and it's full featured. The Linux driver may offer very rudiment support just to make something work. So, it's not so simple. Far from it.
rattlesnakedave 5y ago
This is correct. The "happy path" for a new linux installation is much worse than for windows. It's gotten much better over the last decade, but it's still much harder. Further, if you really want to drive adoption the linux onboarding process has to be better than the windows onboarding process, which is a massively difficult because the windows process is "purchase a computer, hit the power button, and watch the OS as configured by the manufacturer boot."
realusername 5y ago
> People are used to Windows where literally all hardware works. So that statement is not that evident. I wouldn't be so confident, I had my fair share of crappy drivers on windows as well to the point if that the hardware is old, there's a good chance that it will run smoother on Linux.

silisili 5y ago

Exactly. Or, just buy an integrated system from people who support Linux Example - Intel. I've never had a single hardware support problem with a NUC. Intel processor, Intel video, Intel wifi, Intel bluetooth. All supported right in the kernel, out of the box. AMD is getting there, too. I currently run a 4x4 with ryzen and vega, and an Intel ax200. All peachy.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
SavantIdiot 5y ago
Anecdata: I have an intel/dell laptop and bluetooth is a trainwreck on Focal Fossa, let alone display modes and orientation changes. Video playback in FireFox works sometimes, sometimes i need to reboot because it freezes and then won't play again even if I kill the process (I think it is related to going into suspend with a video paused). Yeah, I'm just one person, but damn it is frustrating to do anything else but dev work on linux.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  You're running a two year old kernel on Focal. Try something newer. I have Intel WiFi and Bluetooth and they work perfectly fine on Linux, as does video playback on Firefox.
  - SavantIdiot 5y ago
    Lol. ~30 years of effort and the answer is still: "Download the latest version." Linux is a workhorse, not a Windows replacement for the unwashed masses.
    - heavyset_go 5y ago
      This is like using Windows 7 and complaining when it's Windows 10 that has compatibility with your hardware. LTS releases are explicit that they have limited hardware support, that is if they even attempt to backport new/updated hardware support at all. That's the point of Ubuntu's LTS Hardware Enablement (HWE) program[1], although it isn't perfect and I wouldn't rely on it for hardware support. [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack

ModernMech 5y ago

> Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. Not even then. I have a Ubuntu laptop direct from Dell (who has been selling Ubuntu laptops for 14 years), and every time I go to open it the battery is dead. So it's plugged in constantly. My cats love to sit on the closed lid because of how warm it is. Ostensibly it's asleep, but to the touch I can tell that it's running hot, and that's why it's dead within a few hours of being off the charger, even if it's not "on". I mean, it runs hotter sitting there idle and off than my new Surface does when it's on and compiling my Rust code. That's sad! This is a laptop direct from a hardware manufacturer who supports Linux. This kind of thing was a problem when hibernation first became a thing. Okay, understandable. But 2+ decades later, in 2021, I can't purchase a Ubuntu laptop directly from a manufacturer that has this figured out. That's a problem for Linux. It's one thing to fall short. It's another to fall short for 2 decades.

munchler 5y ago
What does Dell say if you report this as a defect in their product?
- ModernMech 5y ago
  I'm free to return it, but otherwise they will investigate the issue and get back to me. As if.
Kafkish 5y ago
I have a Dell Inspiron with AMD A12 processor that I bought with Windows preinstalled in 2019. Never even booted into Windows, just booted right into a USB stick and installed Elementary OS. Putting the system to Sleep was an issue, but now I have Linux Mint Cinnamon installed on it. No more issue with going to Sleep. I can expect to use the laptop until it packs up.

rvz 5y ago

Windows users don't need to check as their hardware is fully supported as soon as they press the ON button on their new PC. On top of that why waste time installing a distro or playing around with display managers, Linux NVIDIA drivers when WSL does it all on Windows? The fact is: WSL saves time and makes installing Linux redundant and actually a waste of time. Oh dear.

indymike 5y ago
> The fact is: WSL saves time and makes installing Linux redundant and actually a waste of time. Not sure what point you are making here. Yes, you can virtualize and OS and WSL is a nice way to do it?
- rvz 5y ago
  > Yes, you can virtualize and OS and WSL is a nice way to do it? Yes. That's the point. Installing Linux using WSL is several clicks away on the Microsoft Store, rather than wasting hours migrating, rebooting, formatting, dual-booting and then installing a Linux distro on the system. WSL saves lots of time and makes installing Linux on another partition or in general a waste of time.
  - indymike 5y ago
    If are building both Windows and Linux software, that might be convenient. But not particularly more convenient than any other virtualization layer, just more limited (can't install other oses) and with a difficult to maintain and secure host OS. WSL seems to not compete with dual boot, it is competing with other virtual machine software now that is just nicely dressed vm.
Kafkish 5y ago
> The fact is: WSL saves time and makes installing Linux redundant and actually a waste of time. If I ever need to run an OS that spies on me, I'll use Windows, then WSL to tun Linux. But I don't want that, so I run Linux. It's freedom, which is more important for me.

Spivak 5y ago

But it's not FUD. These are issues that affect end real-life end users and many of them are hardware independent.

bogwog 5y ago

> Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. What a waste of time. Who runs into hardware compatibility issues with Linux? People installing it themselves. Who installs Linux themselves? Tech geeks/enthusiasts. Who should know better than to install an operating system before checking for hardware support? Tech geeks/enthusiasts. That's why I can't take those people seriously. If hardware support was a real problem, Apple would have gone out of business long ago. People like that aren't trying to have an honest discussion, they're just trying to bash something they don't like or understand. There are many issues that need to be overcome in the Linux community before the Linux desktop can go mainstream, but we're not going to find answers to those problems by listening to these people.

rattlesnakedave 5y ago
>Who installs Linux themselves? Tech geeks/enthusiasts. Perhaps this wouldn't be the case if we fixed some of the issues in the article :) There are plenty of people "on the fence" but problems mentioned in the article (among others) keep them away.
- bogwog 5y ago
  What type of person knows how to install an operating system that isn't a tech geek/enthusiast? Not even Linux, who can install Windows or MacOS on an empty hard drive, but doesn't consider themselves to be a "computer person"? If the Linux desktop can't take off until my grandma is able to install it herself, then well, yeah it's truly fucked.
rvz 5y ago
Exactly this. These are the exact reasons why users having to 'install Linux distros' these days will always be limited to tech geeks and enthusiasts and not widely adopted as a mainstream desktop. It also explains why Windows 11 (with WSL) is probably the best Linux distro for the desktop as it is already been 'painfully' admitted. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28960864 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28960864

SassyThrowaway 5y ago

> Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. What a waste of time. Say, I am buying Thinkpad T480s and Thinkpad X1 (2018). What would you suggest that I check?

shadowgovt 5y ago
In this scenario, the fact that Lenovo will sell you a Thinkpad X1 with Linux pre-installed shows there is a solution (how easy it is to get to that solution on your own without just buying one pre-configured from them may be an exercise for the reader). https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/x1-carbon-gen9/20xwcto1wwus3 https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx1/x...

rattlesnakedave 5y ago

The common path for someone using Linux for home computing is transitioning from windows on hardware they already own.

selfhoster11 5y ago

Why shouldn't it be expected to work with what I already own?

Kafkish 5y ago

The thing is, Linux distros make it super easy to check if your HW will work. Just download the distro you want, transfer to a USB stick. Reboot your PC with it and check any connected HW. If it works with the live system, it will work when installed on the PC.

phendrenad2 5y ago
What happens when you want to upgrade to a new PC? Do you take the live USB stick to the computer store and try to boot it?

pizza234 5y ago

This is, unfortunately, not necessarily true (of course, the strategy makes sense). I "voted with my money", and the result is that my laptop, which is supposed to be the poster child of Linux compatibility, has at least one serious hardware compatibility problem out of the box, along with at least another minor one.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

> Guess what? Then it all works great. You know, except for literally all the non-hardware related problems in that list.

itvision 5y ago

> Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it. Guess what? Then it all works great. What a waste of time. Ever opened bugzilla.kernel.org? Ever seen the number of regressions? In the past seven days alone: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/buglist.cgi?chfield=%5BBug%20creation%5D&chfieldfrom=7d&list_id=1099399 https://bugzilla.kernel.org/buglist.cgi?chfield=%5BBug%20cre... Count the number of "stopped working" - at least a dozen and these are only from the people who have bothered to find the kernel bugzilla and file bug reports which is not an easy feat. There's no such thing as "checking if your hardware is properly supported under Linux". Everything may stop working at any time.

phendrenad2 5y ago

"Check if your hardware supports your OS before you buy it" Have you ever tried this? It's shockingly difficult. Even if someone says "yes this device works under Linux 100%" half the time you'll see ANOTHER post telling you it's garbage on Linux.

itvision 5y ago

> Saying, "Don't call this FUD" up top doesn't prevent this from being possibly the most blatent FUD I've seen in a long time. Anything more concrete, please? The entire 12 thousand words piece cannot be wrong considering it's shared so much and contains over three thousand comments most of which share the spirit of the article.